Ishtiaq Ahmed Wrote:A Swedish television investigative team called Uppdrag Granskning (Task [sic, it's actually Mission] Scrutiny) has been for a long time exposing corruption scandals, prostitution, oppressive Christian sects, and abuse of power by politicians, big business, and so on. It is one of the most popular and respected quality programmes. The latest was a sting operation against double standards of family counsellors, called imams or religious counsellors at mosques. All mosques receive funding from the state to help Muslims integrate with Swedish society.

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The first question was if a Muslim man could marry four wives simultaneously and nine out of 10 imams, Sunni and Shia, confirmed that they could. The second was if a man could demand sexual service from his wife even if she was not willing. The majority said yes. Under Swedish law, this constitutes rape. The third was if a Muslim woman whose husband beat her should inform the police. They were told not to. Such advice too was in conflict with Swedish law and practice.

Let's add to the list the pros for muslim women in marriage:

¤ Multiple wives*
¤ Rape**
¤ Domestic violence**

(April 17, 2013 at 6:56 am)paulpablo Wrote: One of the videos explains how in yeman due to islamic law children are having babies at an age where they are too young to do so and dying, the actual case being documented is of a 12 year old girl who dies trying to give birth but the documentary goes on to show how this is quite common in yeman due to child brides and islamic law.

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next video.

A girl saying what does she regret about being married at a young age, she says being pulled out of education and she also says she was too young to handle the responsibilities of being married at such a young age, and that she was beaten, but that's also ok according to the quran. She also says she is contemplating suicide if the divorce isn't successful.

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Next video another 10 year old girl saying her father forced her to agree to be married (again showing how easily corruptible this Islamic law is) and how she was taken out of school even though she wanted to be there.

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Next is a video of a 12 year old who is beaten by her husband a lot, pretty straight forward really.

Those cases are just wrong practices by Muslim, not Islam
Islamic laws are not suppose to prevent wrong doings (or else God would have created us as Angels)
Under any systems people will do wrong

Quote:Right now I've stated my case, 9 year olds should be parented and guided away from having sex at such a young age so they can stay in school get an education and wait til they mature a bit mentally before they marry someone who they can flirt with, converse with, fall in love with, maybe when they are a teenager or even later.

You don't understand it, some will want and have sex anyway

Quote:So who's argument do you think is the strongest here and who's provided the most evidence of what actually happens when the laws you support actually are put into place?

You did not provide any evidence except for a weak argument

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(April 17, 2013 at 11:58 am)Kayenneh Wrote: ¤ Multiple wives*

Yes a Muslim can have 4 wives, your argument is that women are equal to men; can you prove that?

Quote:¤ Rape**

What do you mean? Islam doesn't allow rape

Quote:¤ Domestic violence**

Men are allowed to beat their wives (and children) but not strong and not on face, it something like spanking a child
And if the wife doesn't like too much, she can divorce her husband.

(April 17, 2013 at 3:10 pm)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 11:58 am)Kayenneh Wrote: ¤ Multiple wives*

Yes a Muslim can have 4 wives, your argument is that women are equal to men; can you prove that?

Seriously??? WTF?!?

Quote:

Quote:¤ Domestic violence**

Men are allowed to beat their wives (and children) but not strong and not on face, it something like spanking a child
And if the wife doesn't like too much, she can divorce her husband.

A wife is not a child (or shouldn't be). A wife should be a partner in life. If you wouldn't "spank" a business partner, then you shouldn't "spank" your wife. Spanking kids isn't a good thing either. You and other Muslims who hold these kinds of beliefs have some very serious problems, sir.

(April 17, 2013 at 3:23 pm)festive1 Wrote: A wife is not a child (or shouldn't be). A wife should be a partner in life. If you wouldn't "spank" a business partner, then you shouldn't "spank" your wife. Spanking kids isn't a good thing either. You and other Muslims who hold these kinds of beliefs have some very serious problems, sir.

I spank my future wife.

Problem, festive?

(April 17, 2013 at 3:24 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 3:23 pm)festive1 Wrote: A wife is not a child (or shouldn't be). A wife should be a partner in life. If you wouldn't "spank" a business partner, then you shouldn't "spank" your wife. Spanking kids isn't a good thing either. You and other Muslims who hold these kinds of beliefs have some very serious problems, sir.

I spank my future wife.

Problem, festive?

Completely different thing if she specifically asks for it and enjoys it, Violet.

If Islamic law is so great, why are most (all?) countries governed by Islamic law shitheaps rife with corruption, human rights abuses and with some of the lowest living standards in the world despite having some of the greatest reserves of natural resources? Why are Islamic countries (and/or Muslims) almost exclusively the producers of suicide bombers? Why do flocks of Muslims seek Asylum in Western countries (I don't blame them)? Why do so few elect to seek asylum in any other Islamic country?

You see, you can argue about the textual content of the Qu'ran and the "true" Islam all you like, but all the evidence points to society as a whole being, by almost every conceivable measure, worse off when run under Islamic law. If Islam were the "true word of god" and intended to be the method by which people live their lives, then I can only suppose that god is far worse at developing societies than we are.

Specifically with regards to women, the simple fact that women are equal in every respect to men in all developed western countries when this is not the case in any Islamic country automatically proves you wrong. You could suggest that women aren't equal to men, but that would only strengthen my case, since someone "inequal" having equal rights is in an even better position than they should be.

With regards to marriage, it may be that the Islamic system is better, I have no idea. I don't much like the predominant system in the west either. To me, the best system would be to allow the legal joining of any person with any other(s); treating the marriage as a contract like any other. Why any government should be involved in the private decisions of its citizens I have no idea.

(April 17, 2013 at 3:10 pm)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Yes a Muslim can have 4 wives, your argument is that women are equal to men; can you prove that?

UN Wrote:Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

(Taken from the 'Universal Declaration of Human Rights'.)

Quote:What do you mean? Islam doesn't allow rape

Forcing a woman to have sex with her husband, though she doesn't want to is according to Swedish (and many other countries') law rape.

Quote:Men are allowed to beat their wives (and children) but not strong and not on face, it something like spanking a child
And if the wife doesn't like too much, she can divorce her husband.

Again, physical violence, no matter how 'mild' is against the law.

(April 17, 2013 at 3:26 pm)festive1 Wrote: Completely different thing if she specifically asks for it and enjoys it, Violet.

Like I'd wait for her to ask?

Not like I get to do it often... woes of a sub

(April 17, 2013 at 3:10 pm)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Men are allowed to beat their wives (and children) but not strong and not on face, it something like spanking a child
And if the wife doesn't like too much, she can divorce her husband.

What about a leg hook belly-to-back suplex? Is that okay, as long as the landing is cushioned? Like with deep-pile carpeting? Because think about it, would any judge grant a divorce based on "he used a leg hook belly-to-back suplex onto deep-pile carpeting?" I don't think so.

(April 17, 2013 at 4:07 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 3:10 pm)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Men are allowed to beat their wives (and children) but not strong and not on face, it something like spanking a child
And if the wife doesn't like too much, she can divorce her husband.

What about a leg hook belly-to-back suplex? Is that okay, as long as the landing is cushioned? Like with deep-pile carpeting? Because think about it, would any judge grant a divorce based on "he used a leg hook belly-to-back suplex onto deep-pile carpeting?" I don't think so.

12th century rational in the 21st century.

If the pinnacle of faith is being allowed to beat your wife and claim that women are somehow intellectually inferior, then please get me a 1st class ticket to hell.

In believing that some people are less than human based on their gender (or indeed race, sexuality and colour), you yourself become less than human in my eyes. Disgusting. Utterly disgusting.