(April 18, 2013 at 7:15 pm)catfish Wrote: It's logically impossible to "roll" an infinite-sided die, isn't it???
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I call that a sphere... and last I checked, spheres rolled quite well.
A perfect sphere on a perfect surface would roll eternally... see "thought experiment"

Tex, keep thinking...

But, wouldn't all "sides" need to present when it was "rolled"?
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Maybe it wouldn't ever stop rolling! :o

Or, to fit in with his analogy, reality is the infinite "effect" of the first cause.

(April 18, 2013 at 6:52 pm)Tex Wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:You forgot to point out either those would require mass and energy NOT to be the same thing. And that would imply a universe without gravity or electrostatic force and thus no matter at all and thus you are imagining an impossible set of conditions.

Well, I thought I did by stating there is one law of conservation of mass/energy. I'll state it better next time.

Please restate it better right now before you "forget" your promise to do better next time. Because you know you are planning to ignore the issue of course.

Quote:

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:But any "limit" you imagine you can change has to be connected to everything else as it is here OR you cannot use words like mass or energy or bunnies. Remove any connection between things and all of things can no longer exist.

Those were just examples. My proof is not "limited" to those. =p

So lets have some examples which are applicable to your premises. Again you are planning to ignore it so please lets have working examples right now.

Quote:

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:When you can show more than three outcomes (on edge) for a coin toss that might make sense. Obviously you know nothing all the known possible statistical distributions. OR as with your mass and energy and bunnies there is no statistics at all. Everything is non-random and ...

A coin toss only has 3 options, yes, but I'm trying to describe a infinite-sided die roll. Since we're not rolling for Order vs. Disorder (coin toss, no edge) but we're rolling for every cause and effect scenario out there ever (there is no actual "law" outside of our minds dictating cause and effect), the ratio is not 1:1 but 1:∞.

An infinite sided die is a sphere in geometry. In geometry a sphere has only an outside meaning there can be only one result which is a 1:1 ratio.

In practice because a die can only be made of matter there are finite molecules in the die so there are only finite results. Here the ratio is 1:large number.

Cause and effect does not come into this at all.

Quote:

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:... therefore the limit equation is false.

I worded this poorly. I should have said, "Opposed to the infinite possibility for chaos, there is only one possibility for an ordered cause and effect equation." However, I was trying to encompass the whole universe and just messed it all up. Sorry about that.

In quantum mechanics there are a huge number of possibilities existing all at the same time none of which have anything to do with causality. You have said nothing that is true so far.

Quote:

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:So I have to recommend you learn what the words you are using means and the consequences of those meanings. The best you are doing is saying imagine a universe where there is only magic. That is unrelated to any conceivable reality.

I'm trying to convey the absurdity of the existence of cause and effect.

Why would you raise what has been well known for decades from quantum mechanics?

Quote:And even magic is more cause and effect]/quote]

There is no magic therefore no cause and effect is very obvious.

[quote](I say X while doing Y and Z will happen).

X is word magic. Y is gesture magic. But Z will never happen. You make no sense.

Quote:I'm talking about complete randomness. No equation, no reason, no process, just action.

Randomness is ALWAYS describable. There is an equation to describe all known forms. As that is all there is there is nothing you can be talking about which exists. As I said in the last the only non-random system is one that is completly deterministic.

Quote:

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(April 18, 2013 at 2:17 am)smax Wrote: Tex,

The sun will burn out, the earth will become uninhabitable, and galaxies will collide.

At best, you are arguing for poor design.

But the sun burning out has a logical reason to it. There is a coherency to our universe that does not statistically make sense.

Of course the sun its material into heavier elements makes statistical sense. You to learn quantum mechanics and probability wave distributions. As you are likely not up to it as you have shown you do not and apparently cannot understand either statistics or physics I can only advise you to stop posting this nonsense. It serves only to expose your ignorance.

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(April 18, 2013 at 7:15 pm)catfish Wrote: It's logically impossible to "roll" an infinite-sided die, isn't it???
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Anyone can roll a sphere but it has only one side. Odd that infinity = one, no?

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(April 18, 2013 at 7:59 pm)Tonus Wrote: Maybe it wouldn't ever stop rolling! :o

Rolin' Rolin' Rolin'
Though streams are swollen
Keep them dogies movin'
Rawhide!

Through rain wind and weather
Hell bent for leather
Wishin' my gal was by my side.

(April 18, 2013 at 7:15 pm)catfish Wrote: It's logically impossible to "roll" an infinite-sided die, isn't it???

Good call, but I think this actually supports my side. It's impossible to have a universe that isn't ordered, yet it is logically impossible to "randomly" have order in the one we have. Maybe this is the Achilles heel of the argument...

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:Please restate it better right now before you "forget" your promise to do better next time. Because you know you are planning to ignore the issue of course.

Sir, yes sir!

There is the law of conservation of mass and energy, which states that within an isolated system the total amount of mass/energy does not change but either may be redistributed to the other by the ratio of E=mc^2.

Better?

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:So lets have some examples which are applicable to your premises. Again you are planning to ignore it so please lets have working examples right now.

Sir... no sir? I'd have to list an infinite amount of examples. I really don't have the time to do that. =p

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:An infinite sided die is a sphere in geometry. In geometry a sphere has only an outside meaning there can be only one result which is a 1:1 ratio.

In practice because a die can only be made of matter there are finite molecules in the die so there are only finite results. Here the ratio is 1:large number.

Cause and effect does not come into this at all.

It's a ratio of order vs chaos. So ya. It does.

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:In quantum mechanics there are a huge number of possibilities existing all at the same time none of which have anything to do with causality. You have said nothing that is true so far.

I'm speaking about possibility within cause and effect. How does cause and effect not have to do with anything? It's the whole thing!

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:

Tex Wrote:I'm trying to convey the absurdity of the existence of cause and effect.

Why would you raise what has been well known for decades from quantum mechanics?

Quantum Mechanics simply hasn't found the cause for the effects. If there is no cause and effect, how do you know that the ground below you wont suddenly lose electromagnetic force and you sudden sink to the center of Earth? A lack of cause and effect destroys science, not makes it better.

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:X is word magic. Y is gesture magic. But Z will never happen. You make no sense.

You really need to work on social skills. No, magic isn't real, but how magic is portrayed is cause and effect.

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:Randomness is ALWAYS describable. There is an equation to describe all known forms. As that is all there is there is nothing you can be talking about which exists. As I said in the last the only non-random system is one that is completly deterministic.

This is why you don't understand. You're not separating yourself from the presuppositions. That's what I asked for when I made the little proof. Randomness in this universe is actually not random, but has an equation. I am speaking of actual randomness. I'm not talking about anything that exists, I'm making a hypothetical, which is necessary in a multitude of disciplines.

A_Nony_Mouse Wrote:Of course the sun its material into heavier elements makes statistical sense. You to learn quantum mechanics and probability wave distributions. As you are likely not up to it as you have shown you do not and apparently cannot understand either statistics or physics I can only advise you to stop posting this nonsense. It serves only to expose your ignorance.

See above.

(April 18, 2013 at 6:52 pm)Tex Wrote: But the sun burning out has a logical reason to it.

What's that, to kill off all the life it's currently supporting?

Again, poor design.

Something that consistently eludes the god fearin crowd is that all this "logical coherency" and reasons for suns burning out (or even existing- specifically as tey relate to us) are further support of a universe and life that has no need for a god even if there were one.

Let's be clear. There is no reason - whatsoever -if magic- that any of this natural shit is required (and -if magic- it's all ultimately magic). -If magic- we could be carbon based lifeforms in a universe utterly devoid of carbon beyond our bodies. There would be no need for carbon anywhere else. We could be temp sensitive and persist in the absence of a star (and further, stars would not be required for light..nor would they need to burn anything to produce it- nor is there any requirement for "burning" of anything at all). I've often dropped a quip into conversations in partial jest about how great the evidence would be for -some- creative and sustaining force if we could not determine how we managed to survive -and where indeed aware that the environment was entirely un-permissive to our survival....and yet we existed. That would make me think twice. But as it stands, all we have are nuts and bolts. I love the nuts and bolts, I feel awe and wonder about the nuts and bolts - but I;m not surprised that they work..because they're fucking nuts and bolts. That nuts and bolts work together definitely doesn't suggest some sort of god to me.

Now some of that above probably sounds absurd, because it is, because we do not live in such a universe - we don't imagine it to be possible. But..-if magic- why not -this magic-...meanwhile, all of this stars burning until they expend their fuel, life having requirements....this is what we would expect sans gods, sans magic.

(April 18, 2013 at 7:19 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(April 18, 2013 at 7:15 pm)catfish Wrote: It's logically impossible to "roll" an infinite-sided die, isn't it???
.

I call that a sphere... and last I checked, spheres rolled quite well.
A perfect sphere on a perfect surface would roll eternally... see "thought experiment"

Tex, keep thinking...

Except that the planck scale is the limit in smallness of the universe.

Quote:At this scale, the concepts of size and distance break down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_scale

(April 18, 2013 at 11:37 pm)smax Wrote:

(April 18, 2013 at 6:52 pm)Tex Wrote: But the sun burning out has a logical reason to it.

What's that, to kill off all the life it's currently supporting?

Again, poor design.

Its perfect design. Fusion can't magically sustain itself forever. Magic is a terribly incoherent design.