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April 22, 2013 at 7:10 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2013 at 7:12 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(April 22, 2013 at 6:56 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:
(April 22, 2013 at 6:53 am)Zen Badger Wrote: According to Khomeni even a baby girl is eligible for marriage and sex.
Khomeni is not a legitimate source for Sunnah!
I am thinking you should consult the Khomeni on that silly little slave.
(April 22, 2013 at 6:56 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: but statistics shows that girls can start to have puberty by the age of 7, it is rare but it may happen.
Statistics are liken to bikinis.... "what they should is interesting, what they hide is vital"
Foolish to depend on them realistically.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(April 22, 2013 at 5:03 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm going to go out to the gym now and try and have a productive day, while I'm gone you can carry on trying to argue that a system which allows a 40 year old man to beat and have sex with a 9 year old girl is "better" because you say some 9 year olds are horny so they should be allowed to have sex with adults.
Add to that the fact that the system is easily corruptable and a lot of these girls get pulled out of education and actually don't even want to be in the marriage but are forced by their parents.
1. In Islam, it is clearly forbidden for a Muslim man to marry a woman if it is against her will as the Quran states:
"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them , except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good." - (Surah 4:29)
So, if some Muslim parents force their daughters to get married when they don't really want to (which happens quite often), then that is wrong, according to their own religion.
2. The opinion that Aisha was a 9-year-old girl when she got married to Muhammad is not a settled matter. The exact age durng her marriage and the consummation of her marriage with Muhammad is disputed amongst scholars because there are several other hadiths/narrations which suggest that, according to calculations derived from specific dates, she could not have been 9 years old when she got married to Muhammad. Most of them suggest that she was at least 12 at that time.
- According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
- Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.
- Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
- Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.
- According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.
- Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn Urwa reporting on the authority of his father. All the narratives of this event have been reported through narrators from Iraq, where Hisham ibn Urwa is reported to have shifted after living in Madinah for seventy-one years. It is reported in one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Muhammad reports that Yaqub ibn Shaibah said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq”. It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq. Another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Muhammad reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly.
- According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
- According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
- According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.
- Tabaqat ibn Sa’d, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501).
We already have a system in place that prevents women being forced into marriages and even this system has flaws.
If you want to talk about systems and laws then you have to look at what effect these laws will have. As I've already shown when the Islamic system is in place this opens the flood gates for 9 year olds to be forced into marriage, taken out of education beaten and so on and so on as I've re typed over and over.
The law is easily corruptible, ok so the 9 year old gets married she doesn't like it but her parents tell her to shut up and her husband beats her, what's the law going to do?
With the laws of the quran her husband can beat her, she's supposed to respect her parents no matter what.
If you don't want to talk about legislation or systems we can just make up rules that would work in a fantasy world, ok so here's one.
Be good to one another all the time and never beat anyone or do anything wrong or punish anyone ever.
You may say but what if the person deserves to be punished, well they won't deserve to be punished if they are following the rules so my rule is much better than the islamic one where women are allowed to be beaten.
So you can talk about this system in theory, in which case it's flawed because I can just make up any theoretical law that if people followed it would solve all the problems in the world, and the law wouldn't involve anyone being beaten.
Or we can talk about what actually happens when these Islamic laws of marriage is put into place which is as I've repeated, forced marriages, lack of education, beatings, children becoming pregnant.
We can talk about this system either way you want it's still going to be wrong.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
I'm a Christian who lives in the US. You know that there is a very sad misunderstanding of you and your religion there due to al-Quaeda.
What is your attitude towards non-Muslims, and do you consider women equal to men?
(April 22, 2013 at 6:56 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: but statistics shows that girls can start to have puberty by the age of 7, it is rare but it may happen.
Still it doesn't mean that her body is fully developed, grown and able to sustain a fetus, nor does it imply that she's an adult.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
(April 22, 2013 at 7:13 am)Consilius Wrote: I'm a Christian who lives in the US. You know that there is a very sad misunderstanding of you and your religion there due to al-Quaeda.
What is your attitude towards non-Muslims, and do you consider women equal to men?
I think you're supposed to start a separate thread for a separate topic
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
April 22, 2013 at 7:20 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2013 at 7:25 am by Muslim Scholar.)
(April 22, 2013 at 7:13 am)Kayenneh Wrote:
(April 22, 2013 at 6:56 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: but statistics shows that girls can start to have puberty by the age of 7, it is rare but it may happen.
Still it doesn't mean that her body is fully developed, grown and able to sustain a fetus, nor does it imply that she's an adult.
(April 22, 2013 at 7:13 am)Consilius Wrote: I'm a Christian who lives in the US. You know that there is a very sad misunderstanding of you and your religion there due to al-Quaeda.
What is your attitude towards non-Muslims, and do you consider women equal to men?
What the media says about al-Quaeda is not necessary true
Islam doesn't allow violence against civilians
Non-Muslims are treated with justice in Islam, even that their religions is considered false, they are not forced to be Muslims
however if living in an Islamic country they are forced to follow Islamic rules (for example covering their women, etc.)
Girls should not be forced into marriage simply because their bodies are capable of becoming pregnant. And may I ask what doctors these girls in rural areas of undeveloped nations are expected to get medical clearance from? Many child brides come from areas that have few doctors. They don't have access to the luxury of annual checkups, let alone a c-section if their tiny body can't pass a baby.
(April 22, 2013 at 7:20 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Non-Muslims are treated with justice in Islam, even that their religions is considered false, they are not forced to be Muslims
however if living in an Islamic country they are forced to follow Islamic rules (for example covering their women, etc.)
Really? you might want to check with the Coptic christians in Egypt on that one buddy.
April 22, 2013 at 7:40 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2013 at 7:41 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(April 22, 2013 at 7:13 am)Consilius Wrote: I'm a Christian who lives in the US. You know that there is a very sad misunderstanding of you and your religion there due to al-Quaeda.
What is your attitude towards non-Muslims, and do you consider women equal to men?
Christians in the US are not much different Con-job you don't consider women to be equal to men, you enslave them, deny them the rights of their own bodies.
No Con-job...ALL abrahamic religions deny women autonomy over their own bodies, equality within the society they find themselves in and are regarded as chattel to be disposed of as convenient all because of impotent males who are slaves to an ideal that should have died out in the 1000's
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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