Maybe you've heard on of these...

No.

When the old Jeopardy was on I could run the column in Renaissance Italian Literature. But when they started asking what was the #1 song of the prior year I was totally fucked.

well, there's a first time for everything! Enjoy the songs!

(May 9, 2013 at 1:50 am)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: But the Higgs Boson does provide mass. And mass is the cause of GR bending space which is gravity. It would appear the standard model has been satisfied without the need for some "graviton" which has no place in the standard model.

Uh, no. Try harder:

Higgs field 1. does not act on the same set of elementary particles as gravity, 2. does not do the same things as gravity on those particles it does act on, 3. does not have the same quantum properties, such as mass and spin, as anything that could behave like gravity within the framework of the standard model. In short, gravity remains as big a hole in standard model as it ever was.

And since Higgs field was integral to the standard model from the beginning, and the efforts to extend the theoreticaly foundation of standard model to accommodate gravity hasn't led anywhere in 30 years, it is kind of silly to think how experimental verification of some long standing aspect of the standard model suddenly remove the need to explain gravity.

(May 9, 2013 at 1:50 am)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: And that is the disappointing thing about it. No new physics either hinted at or needed.

Uh, no. You should poll some real physicists to inform your outlook before suffering unwarranted disappointment.

(May 9, 2013 at 1:50 am)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Gravitational wave experiments are not related to any graviton. They are an attempt to detect the energy carried away by the interaction of massive object. I Boinc the project.

Ur, no again. Experiments measures things. But it is what the measurement turn out to be that offers the insight. If graviton exists, gravity wave experiment would reveal the properties of gravitons in coherent state, rather like the double slit experiment would reveal the property of the photons in coherent state. So while gravity wave experiment can't isolate individual gravitons as we can individual photons with other experiments, it would put much tighter constrains on the properties of graviton.

(May 8, 2013 at 11:40 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 8:34 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Is this graviton predicted in the standard model?

No, it doesn't say anything about gravitons.

But beyond the stadard model, there has been a strong suspicion since Einstein that gravity at a deep level is symmetrical with the three forces covered by the standard model. So by analogy with those other three forces, gravity would be expected to also be carried by its own messenger particle, the graviton. Although standard model doesn't predict a graviton, particles fitting the necessary characteristics of gravitons doesn't conflict with the standard model.

So at this point existence of the graviton is a well educated guess, but not a strongly supported fact. The gravitational wave experiments planned can potentially verify the existence of gravitons.

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(May 8, 2013 at 9:27 pm)Polaris Wrote: That's like saying a feather affects the wind and is responsible for the wind because it is showing wind exists.

No, it's not. It's like saying you can't change the flow of the air with a feather if the feather doesn't interact with the air. Dark energy won't come out as a residual terms in einstein's equations if it didn't interact with gravity.

Dark energy is theorized as the driving force of gravity (as you cannot have an effect without actual mass)...gravity is one of the proofs dark energy exists under that theory.

(May 9, 2013 at 12:28 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(May 9, 2013 at 1:50 am)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: But the Higgs Boson does provide mass. And mass is the cause of GR bending space which is gravity. It would appear the standard model has been satisfied without the need for some "graviton" which has no place in the standard model.

Uh, no. Try harder:

Higgs field 1. does not act on the same set of elementary particles as gravity, 2. does not do the same things as gravity on those particles it does act on, 3. does not have the same quantum properties, such as mass and spin, as anything that could behave like gravity within the framework of the standard model. In short, gravity remains as big a hole in standard model as it ever was.

And since Higgs field was integral to the standard model from the beginning, and the efforts to extend the theoreticaly foundation of standard model to accommodate gravity hasn't led anywhere in 30 years, it is kind of silly to think how experimental verification of some long standing aspect of the standard model suddenly remove the need to explain gravity.

Are you saying some particles have neither mass nor energy or as you saying some kinds of mass do not bend space? Or are you saying mass is not the cause of gravity and the Higgs is not the source of mass?

Quote:

(May 9, 2013 at 1:50 am)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: And that is the disappointing thing about it. No new physics either hinted at or needed.

Uh, no. You should poll some real physicists to inform your outlook before suffering unwarranted disappointment.

Odd. I read that in the AAAS Science article discussing the CERN findings.

Quote:

(May 9, 2013 at 1:50 am)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Gravitational wave experiments are not related to any graviton. They are an attempt to detect the energy carried away by the interaction of massive object. I Boinc the project.

Ur, no again. Experiments measures things. But it is what the measurement turn out to be that offers the insight. If graviton exists, gravity wave experiment would reveal the properties of gravitons in coherent state, rather like the double slit experiment would reveal the property of the photons in coherent state. So while gravity wave experiment can't isolate individual gravitons as we can individual photons with other experiments, it would put much tighter constrains on the properties of graviton.

The project says they are going to measure, when the detectors are finished, the radiation of energy by gravity waves. The detectors are not particle detectors.

Could you try explaining again?

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(May 9, 2013 at 9:27 pm)Polaris Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 11:40 pm)Chuck Wrote: No, it doesn't say anything about gravitons.

But beyond the stadard model, there has been a strong suspicion since Einstein that gravity at a deep level is symmetrical with the three forces covered by the standard model. So by analogy with those other three forces, gravity would be expected to also be carried by its own messenger particle, the graviton. Although standard model doesn't predict a graviton, particles fitting the necessary characteristics of gravitons doesn't conflict with the standard model.

So at this point existence of the graviton is a well educated guess, but not a strongly supported fact. The gravitational wave experiments planned can potentially verify the existence of gravitons.

---

No, it's not. It's like saying you can't change the flow of the air with a feather if the feather doesn't interact with the air. Dark energy won't come out as a residual terms in einstein's equations if it didn't interact with gravity.

Dark energy is theorized as the driving force of gravity (as you cannot have an effect without actual mass)...gravity is one of the proofs dark energy exists under that theory.

Whose theory is this and where may I read of it?