(May 15, 2013 at 5:15 am)littleendian Wrote: Don't compare "killing" an apple to killing a pig, the former we can do in the comfort of our living room, the other is something so repulsive and contrary to what we feel is right, our innate ethics, that we hide the act away behind fences and walls and pay other people to do it for us and to print pretty pictures on the packaging to never remind us of what was necessary for our pitiful few minutes of taste.

Meh, I don't have any trouble killing pigs, nor would I find any reason to hide the killing, or cleaning. Now, that's probably because we always kept a few pigs around when I was growing up. I'm used to it, familiar on a practical and day to day level wherein the killing and butchering of a pig doesn't seem in any way a momentous or meaningful event to me. But maybe there is something to be said here-in that if a consumer figures that they might be aghast at whatever goes into their meal - pick some other menu item.

Quote:Why is it so hard to accept that all living beings might feel the same urge to stay alive? Any cow or pig has as much or as little right to be alive as you or I, brain size don't enter into it.

It isn't, I would kind of expect that both creatures had a pronounced will to live. As far as what rights they have - well, that depends. Animals raised here in the US have more rights than many human beings in other parts of the world. Fortunately I don't live in a place where this holds - but our livestock are fairly fortunate in co-habitating with me on this count as well.

Quote: The viewpoint of the homo egocentricus is a residue of Christianity and we as atheists should set out to overcome it. We took away the geocentric universe, then we took away the superiority of the white man, then that of man over woman, now we are taking away the arbitrary distinction between man and other animals. It's only logical.

I'm all for busting barriers between ourselves and other species of animals, but forgive me for wondering why eradicating those divisions, whether real or imagined, would have the effect you appear to be hinting at?

Quote:"Human killing" is an oxymoron.

I think that perhaps you're a little murky as to what the word "oxymoron" means. This is one of those things upon which I would absolutely insist - if we were going to continue eating meat, precisely -because- I value ethics, and the life and well being of the animal. I can't watch an animal suffer, personally. I shot a bird with a bb gun once when I was a kid and learned that about myself very well (of all things eh, balling like a little baby over some magpie..lol). If you can't end the animals existence swiftly and decisively - you just don't do it.

Quote:We're not talking about what is convenient, we're talking about what is right. As a self-identified catholic, your own God told you "Thou shalt not kill", and by your own standards it is blasphemy to your own God to re-interpret Her words as only applying to humans.

I don;t think you'll find any traction on that count. Their god is also a known lover of animal blood and burnt flesh. Their god also gave them dominion over beasts and it;s seal of approval on eating meat (provided that they don't drink the blood..remember...that's set aside for the big guy).

(May 15, 2013 at 7:55 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: You still haven't exemplified what the difference was for either of those things by the way, you just said "one is ok, the other is repulsive,"

Animals have a central nervous system which is -- at least for larger mammals -- not much different from our own. This is a strong case for the assumption that these creatures feel pain and desire to live very similarly to humans. An apple does not have a central nervous system with which to register pain, neither has it sense organs to even register painful stimuli, so there is good reason for distinguishing the two.

(May 15, 2013 at 7:55 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote:

Quote:You are gonna die anyway, does it really follow from that that it is ethically justified to kill you now?

I can serve a purpose, I can help mold and shape this world. A chicken or a cow cannot.

Mentally handicapped people are not shaping this world, they are less "useful" in a purely utilitarian sense, so are the elderly or the disabled. From the argument above you would have to concede less value to their lives than to your own live, which is so much more productive.

From what I've heard from you basically your moral grounds are summed up in one sentence: "I do what I want because I'm stronger and smarter". Fine, but I personally won't base my ethics on something that could be a direct quote from Mein Kampf.

Straight to the godwin, lol. 7.5 for enthusiasm, 4 even on the delivery. So thats an overall 5.75 -which is just slightly better than average. Gratz.

No, vegetarians are not more ethical. And if they're Atheist well... can't get much more arbitrary than that.

(May 15, 2013 at 7:12 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Lol. If you morally object to killing and eating animals, don't kill or eat animals. See how simple that was?

Sure, we could all just keep our convictions to ourselfs, but that would defeat the purpose of a forum, wouldn't it? Its good practice for a thinking person to tickle out all the arguments that can be brought into field against their convictions to see if their reasons hold up.

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(May 15, 2013 at 11:51 am)Rhythm Wrote: Straight to the godwin, lol. 7.5 for enthusiasm, 4 even on the delivery. So thats an overall 5.75 -which is just slightly better than average. Gratz.

You have to admit it was handed on a plate

Quote:Don't compare "killing" an apple to killing a pig, the former we can do in the comfort of our living room, the other is something so repulsive and contrary to what we feel is right, our innate ethics, that we hide the act away behind fences and walls and pay other people to do it for us and to print pretty pictures on the packaging to never remind us of what was necessary for our pitiful few minutes of taste.

Actually a rather recent phenomena and only in the industrialized world. Not all that long ago slaughtering animals was a family affair conducted right on the farm. You need a little perspective on history.

An argument that would "tickle my convictions", if you will, would be one that explains why I should put a negative value on eating meat, morally or ethically.

(May 15, 2013 at 11:56 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Don't compare "killing" an apple to killing a pig, the former we can do in the comfort of our living room, the other is something so repulsive and contrary to what we feel is right, our innate ethics, that we hide the act away behind fences and walls and pay other people to do it for us and to print pretty pictures on the packaging to never remind us of what was necessary for our pitiful few minutes of taste.

Actually a rather recent phenomena and only in the industrialized world. Not all that long ago slaughtering animals was a family affair conducted right on the farm. You need a little perspective on history.

Yeah exactly. I've been to countries that do it out in the open.

(May 15, 2013 at 11:52 am)ideologue08 Wrote: No, vegetarians are not more ethical. And if they're Atheist well... can't get much more arbitrary than that.

How do you mean? The only reasons for vegetarianism and veganism should be theistic?

(May 15, 2013 at 11:56 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Don't compare "killing" an apple to killing a pig, the former we can do in the comfort of our living room, the other is something so repulsive and contrary to what we feel is right, our innate ethics, that we hide the act away behind fences and walls and pay other people to do it for us and to print pretty pictures on the packaging to never remind us of what was necessary for our pitiful few minutes of taste.

Actually a rather recent phenomena and only in the industrialized world. Not all that long ago slaughtering animals was a family affair conducted right on the farm. You need a little perspective on history.

Right, but I'm talking about today. I'm not going to argue with someone who raises, slaughters and guts his own dinner, they are obviously okay with what is happening and what it entails. However I have the sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of people would find the things that are going on in the factory farms and mass-slaughterhouses of today quite repulsive indeed. That is why the process is so well hidden and only people who can't get any other job would do this work.