(November 29, 2008 at 7:20 am)allan175 Wrote: What does it imply then? As far as I can see if someone is saying something will happen then they know it's going to happen.

What is your alternative explanation?

Sometimes it means that they will make sure it happens. Tecnically a prophecy is an inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or proclamation thereof. It could be a moral teaching, or a divine command or judgement, or a declaration of something to come. The Hebrew nava and Greek propheteuo doesn't convey prediction or foretelling in the basic sense.

For example, when Ezekiel was told to prophecy to the wind this resulted in the raising of the bones to life. (Ezekiel 37:9 - 10) At Jesus trial those who slapped him asked: "Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who is it that struck you?" (Matthew 26:67 - 68 / Luke 22:63 - 64) meaning they asked for divine revelation rather than prophecy.

(November 29, 2008 at 10:51 am)Daystar Wrote:

(November 29, 2008 at 7:20 am)allan175 Wrote: What does it imply then? As far as I can see if someone is saying something will happen then they know it's going to happen.

What is your alternative explanation?

Sometimes it means that they will make sure it happens. Tecnically a prophecy is an inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or proclamation thereof. It could be a moral teaching, or a divine command or judgement, or a declaration of something to come. The Hebrew nava and Greek propheteuo doesn't convey prediction or foretelling in the basic sense.

For example, when Ezekiel was told to prophecy to the wind this resulted in the raising of the bones to life. (Ezekiel 37:9 - 10) At Jesus trial those who slapped him asked: "Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who is it that struck you?" (Matthew 26:67 - 68 / Luke 22:63 - 64) meaning they asked for divine revelation rather than prophecy.

So you don't believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent then? Which after all is a contradiction anyway.

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(November 28, 2008 at 3:05 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: I'm not sure that you can walk outside tonight and look into the midnight sky and say, "There is no God out there."

Well you can. And I can. I just wouldn't need to. There's no point. I can say that "there is no God" or I "Don't believe in God" but I wouldn't say "I KNOW there is No God" Or "I am CERTAIN there is no God". Unless I was half-joking. I CAN however, say that there is no God if I'm speaking de-facto scientifically. Its just annoying to repeatedly say that I believe that "there almost certainly is no God" but thats what I think really. When I say "There is no God" it would just be a shortening of that.
I would never say "I KNOW" or "I am CERTAIN" unless I wasn't speaking entirely literally and/or I was half-joking.

Quote:Until the day humankind recovers ancient text that reveal an invisible pink unicorn created the universe, and formed mankind from the dust of the earth.. then we can further discuss that topic. I think for now that arguement is flawed to the core, as I just explained.

But that's bullshit because no ancient text has revealed anything supernatural. The Bible hasn't revealed "God".
That's the whole point. Holy scripture is a load of bullshit so you might as well believe in the IPU or the FSM. The burden of proof is on the believer. And there is no proof of the existence or "truth" of God.
No ancient text has ever "revealed" that anything supernaural EVER 'created the universe, and formed mankind from the dust of earth', or formed man in any other way. There is no evidence of God's existence. Religion is bullshit. The bible is bullshit. But most of all God and faith is bullshit. And Dogmatic faith in God is beyond bullshit. Of course dogma itself is bullshit too.

(November 29, 2008 at 10:54 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: So you don't believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent then? Which after all is a contradiction anyway.

I have never really baught into the 'omniscient' and 'omnipotent' stuff. It seems like religious nonsense to me. Religious terms tend to be dramatic - almost pseudo intellectual metaphysical bullshit to me.

Is God omniscient? That means he knows everything, including what we do and think all of our lives - all of us. Then why ask Adam and Eve and Cain what they had done. Why send angels down to see if what the people were complaining about regarding Sodom and Gomorrah?

Is God omnipotent? That means he can do anything, but then why does the Bible say he can't lie?

Is God omnipresent? That means he can be everywhere at once, but then why build a temple for him on Earth and why would the Bible say that his place is in heaven if his place was everywhere at once?

It is a nonsensical way to justify the "mystery of God!" Bullshit. If you can't explain it just be honest about it, don't make it more difficult than it is for no other reason than to confuse would be my advise to those who take the 'omni's' seriously.

Edit: By the way, that isn't to say that God can't know anything he wants to know, or be anywhere he wants to be or do anything that he wants to do.

(November 28, 2008 at 4:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Ahem. We have a living prophet of Pastafarianism (thats better that your religion), and we have a holy book (The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster), and we have several hundred sightings of the FSM is pieces of toast, walls, etc. There are even molecules that look like Him. Exactly how much evidence do you want?

I think you mean, "Rastafarianism." Do you follow the words of Leonard Howell?

Quote:Since when did age of a document add to its veracity anyway? If that logic worked, why do we not think the Earth is flat? Ancient documents claim that to be the truth! Theists are blinded by their religious texts, and they rarely question them.

1999 seems to the year of Rastafarianism. Has anyone in this religion spoken to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

(November 29, 2008 at 12:41 pm)Daystar Wrote: Edit: By the way, that isn't to say that God can't know anything he wants to know, or be anywhere he wants to be or do anything that he wants to do.

So god can be omniscient etc if he wants to be?

(November 29, 2008 at 12:41 pm)Daystar Wrote: Is God omniscient? That means he knows everything, including what we do and think all of our lives - all of us. Then why ask Adam and Eve and Cain what they had done. Why send angels down to see if what the people were complaining about regarding Sodom and Gomorrah?

God knew Adam & Eve had sinned because they were hiding their nakedness. God wanted them to confess their sins. (That's where confession originates).. Just because God is omniscient, and he knows what we are going to do.. That doesn't mean he planned it that way. God gave us two options, "Right from Wrong." Did Eve know it was 'wrong' to eat from the Tree of Knowledge? Answer, yes! she knew it was wrong because God warned them, "Do not eat from this tree!" This is a story about Satan and how he will corrupt mankind into doing evil deeds. It still works that way to this day. Satan is speaking through pornography, heavy metal music, movies..etc,etc,etc.

Quote:Is God omnipotent? That means he can do anything, but then why does the Bible say he can't lie?

He chooses not to. Why would a perfect God lie? That would mean he's not perfect.

Quote:Is God omnipresent? That means he can be everywhere at once, but then why build a temple for him on Earth and why would the Bible say that his place is in heaven if his place was everywhere at once?

God commanded the Jews to build the Temple for a place of Worship. Heaven will be God's final eternal dwelling place.

Quote:It is a nonsensical way to justify the "mystery of God!" Bullshit. If you can't explain it just be honest about it, don't make it more difficult than it is for no other reason than to confuse would be my advise to those who take the 'omni's' seriously.

Everything was explained to you.

Quote:Edit: By the way, that isn't to say that God can't know anything he wants to know, or be anywhere he wants to be or do anything that he wants to do.

God can do as he wishes. That's why he was given the highest title known to man.

(November 29, 2008 at 12:45 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:

(November 28, 2008 at 4:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Ahem. We have a living prophet of Pastafarianism (thats better that your religion), and we have a holy book (The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster), and we have several hundred sightings of the FSM is pieces of toast, walls, etc. There are even molecules that look like Him. Exactly how much evidence do you want?

I think you mean, "Rastafarianism." Do you follow the words of Leonard Howell?

No, I mean Pastafarianism. I do know the name of my religion you know.

(November 29, 2008 at 12:45 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:

Quote:Since when did age of a document add to its veracity anyway? If that logic worked, why do we not think the Earth is flat? Ancient documents claim that to be the truth! Theists are blinded by their religious texts, and they rarely question them.

1999 seems to the year of Rastafarianism. Has anyone in this religion spoken to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

2005 is the year the FSM religion, Pastafarianism was first revealed to the world. Bobby Henderson was the first prophet, and I have visions of the FSM from time to time, as well as finding evidences of Him in the world.

Might I ask you a questions though? You say that you only recognize religions that have been revealed in ancient documents. Why is this? Why do you trust ancient documents so much? How do you know they are correct and not the mindless ravings of an ancient lunatic? You put a lot of faith in ancient documents, when ancient documents have contributed nearly nothing to modern science and understanding. I just want a straight answer to this one:

Why do you put so much faith and trust in ancient documents and not as much in modern ones?

(November 29, 2008 at 2:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: No, I mean Pastafarianism. I do know the name of my religion you know.

Ok, I was just asking.

Quote:2005 is the year the FSM religion, Pastafarianism was first revealed to the world. Bobby Henderson was the first prophet, and I have visions of the FSM from time to time, as well as finding evidences of Him in the world.

Did Bobby Henderson appear before large crowds to show off the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Quote:Why do you put so much faith and trust in ancient documents and not as much in modern ones?

Well, if you're refering to Pastafarianism, you do know that is a parody, right? I'm talking about real ancient documents that claim these men have spoken to the one true God. I put so much faith into these documents because modern archaeaologists are digging up the truth after thousands of years later. If you want evidence. Just ask any Jewish Archaeologist.

(November 29, 2008 at 3:38 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: Did Bobby Henderson appear before large crowds to show off the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

He did one better. He released the information on the internet.

Quote:Well, if you're refering to Pastafarianism, you do know that is a parody, right? I'm talking about real ancient documents that claim these men have spoken to the one true God. I put so much faith into these documents because modern archaeaologists are digging up the truth after thousands of years later. If you want evidence. Just ask any Jewish Archaeologist.

*facepalm*.

You just don't get it do you? These ancient texts claim that men spoke with God, but what makes that claim accurate??? People lie, they have delusions, they suffer from illness that makes them hallucinate. To put your complete trust that these texts are 100% accurate is to make the massive assumption that the ancient people were 100% truthful or in their right minds when they wrote them down.

How can you make that assumption? What evidence do you have that backs up the claims which we can verify as truth?

Let me put it another way. Say I wrote a book that claimed I spoke to God, and got his commandments. I convince people that the book is the truth, and people believe me (for whatever reason, it's a hypothetical). Thousands of years later, archaeologists discover my original book. What does the book prove, other than I claimed these things and convinced people to believe them? Without knowing about the true origins of my "ancient" manuscript, how would you be able to know if I was truthful or not?

Don't you get it Adrien?! Those ancient scripts are the truth because they say they are! Would holy scripts lie about being holy scripts? I rather think not.