(December 22, 2009 at 1:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Christians do indeed get their moral guidance from the bible Suzie ().. and aim to do good inspired by it. That is a million miles away from their belief stance or anything they might do making them 'good'.

The idea that underpins Christianity that is fully explained in the Adam and Eve story is that people are not good by default.

@TW: Indeed. We shouldn't disregard our history and lessons that can be learned there, or disregard historical wisdom without considering it. Which brings religion back into the equation.

Thats not what I got fro the Adam and Eve myth.
The things that stuck out for me.

1: God does not want you to know anything. (the crime was eating from the tree of knowledge and becoming self aware)
2: God has a tendency for over the top punishments. Cast out eternally for a bit of scrumping seems excessive to me.
3: God is stupid, I mean leaving a tree with forbidden fruit in proximity to people is just asking for trouble. So either it was a stupid thing to do or a set up.

Since when was it a crime to eat an apple anyway?

I never said there wasn't more to life, I just said it'd be foolish to ignore wisdom. Society will follow its own selfish aims. Our society happens to be based on religious principles.

(December 22, 2009 at 6:28 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(December 22, 2009 at 1:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Christians do indeed get their moral guidance from the bible Suzie ().. and aim to do good inspired by it. That is a million miles away from their belief stance or anything they might do making them 'good'.

The idea that underpins Christianity that is fully explained in the Adam and Eve story is that people are not good by default.

@TW: Indeed. We shouldn't disregard our history and lessons that can be learned there, or disregard historical wisdom without considering it. Which brings religion back into the equation.

Thats not what I got fro the Adam and Eve myth.
The things that stuck out for me.

1: God does not want you to know anything. (the crime was eating from the tree of knowledge and becoming self aware)
2: God has a tendency for over the top punishments. Cast out eternally for a bit of scrumping seems excessive to me.
3: God is stupid, I mean leaving a tree with forbidden fruit in proximity to people is just asking for trouble. So either it was a stupid thing to do or a set up.

May I put forward an additional suggestion of possible biblical mishap:

God cannot distinguish between responsibility of an alleged culprit and its offspring. Notwithstanding the utter stupidity of this, original sin has pervaded all christian thinking. It seems a strong argument for naive tribal origin of biblical account to me.

Quote:I never said there wasn't more to life, I just said it'd be foolish to ignore wisdom.

Wisdom precludes foolishness. Being intelectually enlightened with wisdom prevents one from an act of deliberate ignorance.

Quote:Society will follow its own selfish aims.

As long as there is a herd.

Quote:Our society happens to be based on religious principles.

Not very accurate at all. You've only got ask people how many of the 10 commandments mean anything to find out that most atheists are more willing to ask "under what circumstances", in reply.
One such example (as I know you love them so) is the news story of a priest telling followers to steal.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/66...-to-steal/

Precisely accurate. Our laws are based on religious principles. Those are being eroded as ignorance of the source grows.

Welcome Trustworthy

(December 22, 2009 at 6:28 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(December 22, 2009 at 1:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Christians do indeed get their moral guidance from the bible Suzie ().. and aim to do good inspired by it. That is a million miles away from their belief stance or anything they might do making them 'good'.

The idea that underpins Christianity that is fully explained in the Adam and Eve story is that people are not good by default.

@TW: Indeed. We shouldn't disregard our history and lessons that can be learned there, or disregard historical wisdom without considering it. Which brings religion back into the equation.

Thats not what I got fro the Adam and Eve myth.
The things that stuck out for me.

1: God does not want you to know anything. (the crime was eating from the tree of knowledge and becoming self aware)
2: God has a tendency for over the top punishments. Cast out eternally for a bit of scrumping seems excessive to me.
3: God is stupid, I mean leaving a tree with forbidden fruit in proximity to people is just asking for trouble. So either it was a stupid thing to do or a set up.

Since Frodo didn't answer them directly I'll take a stab to stir up conversation.

1: Perhaps it knew (presupposing consciousness) that we couldn't handle such knowledge. It's evident by the destruction man has wrought on this planet and to each other. What creator would want it's creations to destroy other creations? I'm pretty sure it's called the tred of "good and evil" in most translations, not self-awareness. Knowledge (of whatever) does not predicate self-awareness.
2:I see it as a restriction from a perfect place. In the schema of eternity what's a few millenium in a world where we have to fend for ourselves. My dad put me on restriction all the time.
3tupidity supposes intelligence and consciouness. The rest is a false dichotomy. I didn't leave my wallet on the table to test my wife to see if she'd steal from me. I didn't care if she took anything either, she'd done it before and would do it again. I put it there because I got busy playing games and it was a thorn in my butt when I sat down.

Basing laws on religious principles is a bad idea as is evident by Christianity's history and its horrible effects on modern society. Because of the bible and its mythical God's precepts, gays, abortionists, atheists, and many other groups are targets of all sorts of prejudices and societal hatred. Religion fosters bigotry and intolerance and the very herd mentality that has caused so much unnecessary strife in so many aspects of our modern society, all based on the ignorance of primarily the bible.

(December 22, 2009 at 8:26 am)chatpilot Wrote: Basing laws on religious principles is a bad idea as is evident by Christianity's history and its horrible effects on modern society.

Basing laws on natural selection, while the outcome would be, most likely, better doesn't justify the means either.

(December 22, 2009 at 8:26 am)chatpilot Wrote: Because of the bible and its mythical God's precepts, gays, abortionists, atheists, and many other groups are targets of all sorts of prejudices and societal hatred. Religion fosters bigotry and intolerance and the very herd mentality that has caused so much unnecessary strife in so many aspects of our modern society, all based on the ignorance of primarily the bible.

Religion does foster lots of good and bad ideals. It's people's interpretations that lead to strife, bigotry and intoleance. The institution of religion is very different than my personal walk with God.

(December 22, 2009 at 8:46 am)tackattack Wrote:

(December 22, 2009 at 8:26 am)chatpilot Wrote: Basing laws on religious principles is a bad idea as is evident by Christianity's history and its horrible effects on modern society.

Basing laws on natural selection, while the outcome would be, most likely, better doesn't justify the means either.

You seem locked in some false dilemma between bible and natural selection. Tell me, who is suggesting that we should base law on natural selection?

tackattack Wrote:Religion does foster lots of good and bad ideals. It's people's interpretations that lead to strife, bigotry and intoleance. The institution of religion is very different than my personal walk with God.

If we cannot distinguish christianity and christians as the source of evil, than how can we distinguish between christianity and christians as a source of good?