(July 5, 2013 at 12:15 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: But what is my claim? A: That there cannot be proof. That neither of us can know (see above).

So where does that leave your opposition? On what subject are you objecting? Certainly not what you're basing your objection on.

If there can b no proof, there can be no rational justification for believing in something. You still do, hence you have an additional claim that you've already admitted you can't provide evidence for.

eek Esq you're talking yourself into a corner there!

So what is the subject?

(July 6, 2013 at 10:05 am)fr0d0 Wrote: eek Esq you're talking yourself into a corner there!

So what is the subject?

I'm not talking myself anywhere, because I am making approximately zero claims. The default position is to not believe in something until there's sufficient evidence to. You believe in a god, but whenever you're pressed for evidence of his works, you reply with something along the lines of "evidence for the supernatural? How ridiculous!"

You've admitted that you have no proof. Therefore, belief in this thing is inherently irrational, especially if you'll believe this one thing, but won't extend that same practice to every other unevidenced claim.

Your corner is the wrong topic Esq. Proof is impossible in your chosen subject, so you are being highly irrational in trying to pursue it. When you're tired of the dumb corner by all means give me a shout. k?

What's dumb about not believing in the Loch Ness monster without A. Seeing it for yourself B. Reviewing biological evidence either in the effect it has on the ecosystem or the affects of it's being alive (teeth or bones or aNything)? I have searched and found nothing substancial to make me believe this earth and universe are fine tuned for humanity (see: banana debate guy). What I have found is evidence for a self procreating replicating and evolutionary system that does not require any un-natural force to make that system exist.

I'd rather not believe in something that shows no sign of its' existence (even when I unquestionably give it what it asks for). Especially if that thing demands unwaivering sureity in following man written documents with the threat of hades. I think you and I both agree that just because someone else says there's a Loch Ness (and has an ancient scribe detailing its existence), that that does not make it true. What you are saying in essence is that he needs to be put in the dumb corner for not believing in something just because someone (who has everything to gain and nothing to lose) says it's true. I think you're capable of a better argument than that; there is one, that he'd accept, seeing as how he's not a gnostic.

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(July 6, 2013 at 2:33 am)missluckie26 Wrote: The terrible things I experienced as a child were in faith and partly because of it. Is it wrong then to expect the god who made our bodies, to heal it? Not mine, my fathers.

frodo Wrote:Very wrong. "do not test the lord your father."

Yeah, that whole jump off the cliff in the desert Jesus tribulation. Got it.

1 John 5:14
Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him

We understood only to ask that his will be done, nothing more.
What I'm saying is there was no will to bE done. No mysterious master plan and certainly anything I attributed to that is statistically going to happen anyways. People get breaks every day. You know every Christian I talked to believed they see 11:11 in their daily lives because of their beliefs? I still see it, but it only means the time of day now. Just because I saw something in life go other than badly for me doesn't mean anything more than what it is. Life, living it. Had my parents not taught me that good things were attributed to god's grace, I wouldn't have even known or thought that. Just that it's life, and I'm living it. I now thank the proper people who did me kindness or helped me. I don't assume god did it. And I repay the kindness in my life. It's a social thing called pay it forward, and helps our survival. Christians are pay it forward kind of people, I don't deny that that's an admirable trait to have and I'm not trying to tell you what to believe or that youre a bad person or even that you are wrong. I'm merely 'witnessing' what I get out of my experiences, that have led me to believe the god of the bible does not exist (coming from my learned belief that he does.)

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(July 6, 2013 at 2:33 am)missluckie26 Wrote: I got no where with nothing so I concluded he's non existent. The lack of evidence even in the face of lifelong faith overwhelms me is all.

fr0d0 Wrote:God doesn't work that way, and I'm sure your family understand that. You don't get to demand anything. You should certainly never ever get evidence. Where did this misunderstanding creep in? Does your mother think the same?

Neither of us do or did.

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(July 6, 2013 at 2:33 am)missluckie26 Wrote: As for now: I don't know you'll have to ask those whom I love. I haven't changed much, I still put others before my own well being. Bad habit that I know you'll just say was misdirection.

fr0d0 Wrote:Quite the opposite. You're a beautiful person.

Thank you so are you

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(July 6, 2013 at 2:33 am)missluckie26 Wrote: But when you climb a tier of faith for as long as I did, yeah you eventually will conclude your very body is expendable as is anything on this earth; because its not yours its gods. And gods will reigns supreme. Just ask those missionaries when they visit from Africa. I was headed for doctors without borders, when my body gave out on me.

fr0d0 Wrote:Too true. Nature (God) calls the shots, not us.

There's that argument I was talking about. No one can say god didn't start it all. What makes you believe he did though?

(July 6, 2013 at 4:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: What you are saying in essence is that he needs to be put in the dumb corner for not believing in something just because someone (who has everything to gain and nothing to lose) says it's true. I think you're capable of a better argument than that; there is one, that he'd accept seeing as how he's not a gnostic.

Esq is attacking me yet missing the point. As a result, I'm quite happy to make fun of his ignorance. From my history with him it's very surprising. He's joining the mob of idiots. I might end up having to put him on ignore.

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(July 6, 2013 at 4:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: We understood only to ask that his will be done, nothing more.

Can you not see how ridiculous that statement is? How it bears no resemblance to the source?

(July 6, 2013 at 11:41 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Your corner is the wrong topic Esq. Proof is impossible in your chosen subject, so you are being highly irrational in trying to pursue it. When you're tired of the dumb corner by all means give me a shout. k?

Actually, he's pointing out that it's completely irrational to believe in something that, by its very nature, can never be verified even in the slightest and least-significant manner, and that you are making a special exception for your god by suspending disbelief in him while maintaining disbelief in all other gods, when, objectively, not a single one is any more likely to be real than any other.

(July 6, 2013 at 4:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: What I'm saying is there was no will to bE done. No mysterious master plan and certainly anything I attributed to that is statistically going to happen anyways. People get breaks every day.

...and that's what you're meant you see. It's what everyone leaving faith sees. There never ever was magic. All of it could be explained both ways. All of it is entirely down to belief.

All that changes is you. Natural law is now your master instead of love. You won't see it that way. To you it's a release from the oppression your faith turned into (I felt the same/I'm certainly not singling you out with that).

No fr0d0, you don't get it. We literally didn't ask anything. We just prayed that his will be done.

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Oh and Love? It is the most powerful thing on this earth that humans have the ability to do, and your creed doesn't hold the patent on it, sorry to burst your bubble. When it comes down to it, fr0d0: you know I'd die for you. You saw that thread. I'd die to save you and I'd die trying to save you. Which is saying a lot considering I don't believe I get anything but this life to live.

You also did not answer the question I posed in my last post, btw.

(July 6, 2013 at 4:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:Too true. Nature (God) calls the shots, not us.

There's that argument I was talking about. No one can say god didn't start it all. What makes you believe he did though?

There shouldn't be proof to support faith, or it cannot be faith.

And faith is understanding that.

What makes me believe is reasoning. I cannot believe against my understanding.

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(July 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: You also did not answer the question I posed in my last post, btw.

You didn't give me time :p