I know that I'm not the only liberal here, and I was wondering just how much of a minority I'm in. So. Do you class yourself as a liberal?

If the definition is too loose, allow me to give a decent enough description based on liberalism's poster boy, John Stuart Mill. This is a summary of his position as declared in his work On Liberty.

Your freedoms allow you to do anything up until the point where your actions infringe upon the freedoms of other people. Put simply, consenting adults can do what the hell they like without the problem of other people telling them what they can (or cannot) do.

e.g. If you're against abortions, don't have one. You have no right to tell other people that they can't have one. They're not infringing your freedoms, so don't attempt to infringe theirs.

If you're a liberal, you will also be an egalitarian. No gender, no race, no sexual preference... nothing that you were born with allows you a greater right than any other person.

Liberals oppose inequality. Freedom for all.

And yet the word is used in a defamatory way. "Yeah, those scummy liberals... looking out for the rights of people who don't look exactly like them!".

And, based on some of the threads I've been reading, there sure are a shitload of non-liberals on AF.

I see a lot of "no true Scotsmans" in this thread's future.

I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of liberals who do not subscribe to the particulars you've listed above. Just sayin'.

(July 22, 2013 at 2:30 pm)Red Celt Wrote: e.g. If you're against abortions, don't have one. You have no right to tell other people that they can't have one. They're not infringing your freedoms, so don't attempt to infringe theirs.

Does this apply to, for example, gun ownership as well? I find that it's where the political line between liberals and libertarians* is usually drawn.





(*Although that term is pretty hazy here in the USA. I find that libertarians here fall into two groups-- those who are mostly liberal in their views --with exceptions like those noted above-- and those who are Republicans who dislike taxes and social programs even more than the typical Republican.)

(July 22, 2013 at 2:37 pm)Annik Wrote: I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of liberals who do not subscribe to the particulars you've listed above. Just sayin'.

Then I'd be interested in reading their definition of what a liberal is. I might well agree with it. Or I might not. Time will tell.

The term "liberal" is used in Germany not to describe people who have leftwing political views, but liberterians.
American definitions do not apply globaly.

(July 22, 2013 at 2:46 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(July 22, 2013 at 2:30 pm)Red Celt Wrote: e.g. If you're against abortions, don't have one. You have no right to tell other people that they can't have one. They're not infringing your freedoms, so don't attempt to infringe theirs.

Does this apply to, for example, gun ownership as well? I find that it's where the political line between liberals and libertarians* is usually drawn.

Yeah, I was wary of mentioning guns. There will almost certainly be differences there. To me, those who oppose any form of gun controls can't be classed as liberals. There's nothing that infringes on the liberties of others like some looney-toon with a gun. If a simple medical check prior to the purchase of a gun (to make sure that they don't have a history of mental illness (or of violence) that might make them more prone to harming others) is opposed by someone... then that person isn't a liberal.

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(July 22, 2013 at 2:48 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: The term "liberal" is used in Germany not to describe people who have leftwing political views, but liberterians.
American definitions do not apply globaly.

Yeah, libertarianism is an American concept that hasn't really travelled much outside of the USA. In political terms, it is easily understood and can be exported... even if the word isn't universally known. And too many people use libertarian as a synonym of liberal. Which it clearly isn't.

If a liberal is as you say, then yes, I am a liberal. The term, however, means so any different things to different people that I find it useless in describing my political views.

It just also came to my mind that whilest you talk about "founding fathers", here we use the term "Gründermütter" = "founding mothers".
Because most of the people who wrote our constitution in the early 1950s were women.

On the political field we actualy hardly have such generalising categorisations.
We have a racist social democrat, greens who oppose gay marriege, a homosexual conservative representative in parlaimant, a green governor who is devoutly catholic, a conservative minister of finance who works in the style of authoritarian prussian tradition - who speaks fluent french

I dont know how to give you a better picture of it, but it is safe to say that our political system avoids generalisation. Political debates in our parlaimant are for most a boring thing to watch, there is no party line or ideological line which is set to be followed by all members of a party. Instead subjects are discussed by representatives and individuals bring fourth their opinions and interpretation to the presented facts.
Our country went through 3 different forms of dictatorship in the last century - absolute monarchy, fascism and communism - all of which governed with generalisations as one method of keeping power. So I guess that generalisations are simply something which is frowned upon in todays republic.

Quote:And yet the word is used in a defamatory way.

Mainly by asshole fascists who wrap themselves in the flag and parade around with a fucking cross, too.

I regard "conservative" as a defamatory term.