Being a rational thinker means taking a hard look at the facts and making a decision based on them. The hardest part about this seems to be the influence that biases have on our judgement. In order to be able to rely on your process of thinking, one must be aware of their biases. We must ask ourselves "Why?".

Why do I think that?
What reason do I have to justify my opinion?

The history of mankind is riddled with horrific events such as The Holocaust and the periods of Slavery in America. The details surrounding these times in history no doubt impact the judgments people make concerning prejudice and equality today. When people learn about their culture, it’s hard not to identify with the people that suffered from those historic tragedies, but to what extent? It is important to learn about history so that it doesn’t repeat itself, but when you begin to formulate a genuine hatred or skepticism toward a specific group of people, it may be time to stop, and ask yourself the questions above.
Why do I think that?

What reason do I have to justify my opinion?

Slavery took place because people were not viewed as equals, but instead, the value of their life was presupposed according to the color of their skin. This is a tragedy that has been drastically improved, although the root cause of it, racism, has not been eliminated.

Slavery will not be tolerated again. The lives of many people were destroyed from it. There are people alive today that are descendants of those affected by slavery and are still victims of racism today. Some take an interest in their heritage. When learning of the travesties inflicted on their relatives, I would imagine it would be very easy to begin to foster hatred and biases related to the incidents and seek retribution. At this point, it is crucial to once again stop, and ask the above questions.
Inevitably, descendants of the individuals committing these historically heinous acts will begin to research their heritage. Upon further understanding, some of them might desire to offer retribution for such things, but how? Who do you repay for such egregious behavior if the victims are long-since gone, and you are only affiliated with the perpetrators by way of a distant relative, that lived in a similar geographical area. What level of responsibility do you have for the crimes committed by distant relatives to the distant relatives of those victims? At this point…ask the questions again.

So at this point what has happened?

A long time ago, group of people did unspeakable things to another group of people.
200 years later, descendants of the victims are mad about it.
200 years later, descendants of the perpetrators, feel bad about it.
Retribution is being sought by the descendants of victims.
Retribution is being offered by the descendants of the perpetrators.

Let’s look at what’s changed:

Slavery has been abolished in America.
Every American has the same amount of rights.
The President of The United States is black and in the middle of his second term in office.

What hasn’t changed:

Racism still exists.
Retribution is still demanded
Retribution is still offered



At this point, it’s time to stop, and ask ourselves some questions again.
What kinds of retribution that is being sought and offered for being related to a victim of slavery?
Equal rights (I know you’re thinking of other things, but I will put those in a different category)

I do not, at all wish to sound insensitive, but we can’t erase the tragedies of our past. There’s nothing that can be done, to un-do the fact that slavery happened. But we can’t be foolish enough to think that racism only existed between black and white people. Racism goes so much deeper than that, and is not exclusive to only black victims. Anybody can be victims of racism. Yes, slavery is probably the most significant event caused by racism in America, and it should never be excused or tolerated. However, nothing can be done to undo that act of racism. Retribution for racism is a tricky thing to offer and a tricky thing to seek. We must be really careful to make sure we are not being counterintuitive. Let me show why.

Racism occurs when somebody receives either an advantage or a disadvantage due to the color of their skin. If one hopes to offer retribution for past racism for a specific race, it cannot be a form of racism toward another. These are examples of just a few forms of retribution offered to black people for the acts of racist white people.

Black history month
National Association of the Advancement of Colored People
All black colleges
College grants dedicated for black people
All Black fraternities
All Black activist clubs
Black Entertainment Television
…
These are all counterproductive to achieving equality and unity!!! If at every point people begin to see themselves as equals, something like this comes up to remind you of your differences, and then reward you for it, why would you want to be equal? Learning your heritage is one thing, but being constantly reminded that you are different is not a way to promote equality among people. It causes a sense of entitlement to those that recieve the additional opportunities, and contempt by those who are denied it.

People should be celebrated. The achievements or accomplishments of people should not be qualified by their skin color. The exposure a specific act or accomplishment gets should not depend on skin color. A grant or scholarship, equality of opportunity, these are all things that should be afforded to everyone. Skin color is an unnecessary distraction that is completely irrelevant pertaining to the sorts of things that are offered as retribution. Until we all stop rewarding people for being different, unity is not something that will be sought after. I think it’s time we refocus on what the goal is and a way to get there that doesn’t leave us singling out any minorities, or using racism to cure racism.

There cannot be any retribution since the victims are dead by now.

What can be done is to take the historical responsiblity of creating a egalitarian society.




Sidenote: There is more slavery today in a world in which it is outlawed, then there was whilest it was still legal.

Insofar as slavery helped build the wealth of the nation and insofar as it did so at great costs to the enslaved people and their descendants, I think we owe it to them to at least maintain a society with true upward mobility and opportunity. Personally, in recognition of the fact that we don't have that, I would be in support of efforts to give the descendants of slaves a leg up at least in regards to access to college and financial support as needed to make use of it.

(July 25, 2013 at 1:46 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: There cannot be any retribution since the victims are dead by now.

What can be done is to take the historical responsiblity of creating a egalitarian society.




Sidenote: There is more slavery today in a world in which it is outlawed, then there was whilest it was still legal.

I'm glad you were able to read what I wrote without taking offense. The latter statement you made carries a lot of truth. This is a tough subject to comment on, I just hear a lot of bias driven opinions surrounding it dailty (both black and white) and it annoys the hell out of me.

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(July 25, 2013 at 1:47 pm)whateverist Wrote: Insofar as slavery helped build the wealth of the nation and insofar as it did so at great costs to the enslaved people and their descendants, I think we owe it to them to at least maintain a society with true upward mobility and opportunity. Personally, in recognition of the fact that we don't have that, I would be in support of efforts to give the descendants of slaves a leg up at least in regards to access to college and financial support as needed to make use of it.

I don't have a problem with that specifically. I just don't see how that can be offered without the segregation implied by the requirements to qualify for them. Especially since both, the original perpetrators and victims are long since gone. We should be trying to move forward. Innocent people repaying relatives of victims seems to be a wasted effort if progression is the goal. Moving forward means being aware of the past and trying to improve upon it. What we're doing seems to be something quite different.

Well, it comes down on whether you really care about the slavery days so very much as to offer your own money to the descendants of slaves. Some people really don't care about it that much. Generally it is those whose ancestors have been slaves who push for it, though demanding reparations from your ex-masters is really not something a person of dignity would do, in my opinion, its the same as the dog, who had been beaten by some guy the other day, eats out of the hand of the same guy the next day.
Does it matter if the guy who beat the dog feels sorry about it? If only the dog and man changed places, perhaps then we could speak of justice.

And so long as we're still taking about both the same man and dog, at the same time and not- All German Shepherds for instance, and all men, throughout the course of all time.

(July 25, 2013 at 2:31 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: And so long as we're still taking about both the same man and dog, at the same time and not- All German Shepherds for instance, and all men, throughout the course of all time.

Well, it was simply an example, don't get caught in the details too much.
What I'm saying is, that this whole reparation business is in the hands of the former masters. The blacks today can rant about it all they want, yet they have no real say in this.
And it is them who will receive the pay, though what amount will be adequate?
I think this reparation business is a problematic one, it won't hold.

Quote:The President of The United States is black and in the middle of his second term in office.

Historical note: The President of the United States is as much white as he is black.

I agree. I just think that all to often "former masters" is assumed to mean all living white people. Past, present and future and likewise-"slaves" means the same for all people of African descent. This reasoning seems to be suffering from severe compositional deficiencies.

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(July 25, 2013 at 2:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:The President of The United States is black and in the middle of his second term in office.

Historical note: The President of the United States is as much white as he is black.

In this country, skin color alone is what defines ones connection with a heritage or history. My ancestors are Italian and German. They weren't even in America during slavery. Yet, I've heard black people tell me in discussions that "my people" did things to their people. More ignorantly drawn lines that encourage segregation. It's so unnecessary. However, that's exactly the mentality we are promoting with the sorts of "retribution" we offer and promote.

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An example, and possibly a post for another thread entirely, is what women in the military ask for.

They want to be viewed as equal, but don't have any problems having lower physical readiness standards required of them. If you want to be equal, anybody, you can't continue to accept policies that imply inadequacies or inequities OF ANY KIND. Not even the convenient ones. It's backwards thinking.

(July 25, 2013 at 2:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Historical note: The President of the United States is as much white as he is black.

The term that used to exist for that is Mulatto. Not a word considered in vogue anymore.

Personally I think the reason why everyone only thinks of him as black and only black usually is from the old days of "One Drop Rule".

During the Jim Crow era each state had definitions for whether you were black or not depending on how many black ancestors you had. Some said if you were at least 1/8th black you were considered black. Others said 1/16th.

However, under all of these Zimmerman would have been considered black. But our media doesn't even consider him hispanic most of the time. Only white.

This shit's getting confusing.

I say we scrap all of the terms altogether.