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Why I Am Pro-Life
RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
(July 29, 2013 at 4:07 pm)Slave Wrote: My point is I took issue with people in this thread for their opinions on abortion and argued my stance on the matter.

I didn't ask what you were doing. I asked what your point was.

You bring up species classification. In fact, you and Frodo keep harping on it as if you both think it's some kind of slam dunk. How does species classification fit into a discussion of ethics or abortion rights?
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"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
(July 29, 2013 at 4:54 pm)Slave Wrote: Because we are talking about humans. I care about the affairs of humans and human rights, as I consider myself a humanitarian.

We also keep 'harping on' about species classification after having been repeatedly told that an embryo (and all other development stages of human life) are not human.

teaearlgreyhot Wrote:The golden rule is my assumption. Assuming the golden rule, then abortion isn't murder. Many atheists here assume golden rule so I thought it would provide an interesting perspective to those of us who hold it. I don't believe in objective morality. I only hold to the golden rule because every violation of it I can imagine disgusts me.

I must know however, why do you personally object to murdering an adult human? I.e. by what criteria do you conclude that murder is wrong?

Fair enough for the first paragraph.

As for your question, I guess I would say murder is wrong if not done in self-defense and even then it should be as a last resort only. I disagree with the death penalty, as I see it is hypocritical to kill murderers for killing i.e. 'an eye for an eye' is bullshit.

Firstly, I think we need to clear up our terms. My understanding is that the word "kill" means to take the life of another and "murder" is specifically denotes the wrongful killing of another. "Kill" isn't necessarily an action that is right or wrong. Murder however is by definition wrong. To say "murder is wrong if.." makes as little sense as saying "wrongful killing is wrong if..." as if one could say "wrongful killing is right if..." which is a contradiction.

What's at issue here what acts of killing are specifically acts of murder (wrongful killing) and why they are murder.

Do you apply your criteria of what is murder to all living things or just humans? Am I to understand this is your thinking?

All acts of murder are ones that involve a human killing another human "not out of self defense or not as a last resort"

Killing a kitten is not an act that involves a human killing another human "not out of self defense or not as a last resort".

Therefore, killing a kitten is not murder.
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
teaearlgreyhot Wrote:Firstly, I think we need to clear up our terms. My understanding is that the word "kill" means to take the life of another and "murder" is specifically denotes the wrongful killing of another.

I would agree with this classification.

Quote:"Kill" isn't necessarily an action that is right or wrong.

Correct.

Quote:Murder however is by definition wrong. To say "murder is wrong if.." makes as little sense as saying "wrongful killing is wrong if..." as if one could say "wrongful killing is right if..." which is a contradiction.

I can dig it.

Quote:What's at issue here what acts of killing are specifically acts of murder (wrongful killing) and why they are murder.

Do you apply your criteria of what is murder to all living things or just humans? Am I to understand this is your thinking?

I do not conflate the murder of one human by another with a human killing an animal. Of course, there are moral considerations to be made with regards to the killing of other life forms.

Quote:All acts of murder are ones that involve a human killing another human "not out of self defense or not as a last resort"

Killing a kitten is not an act that involves a human killing another human "not out of self defense or not as a last resort".

Therefore, killing a kitten is not murder.

I agree.
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
(July 29, 2013 at 3:57 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(July 29, 2013 at 2:36 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: A zygote + is a human life
A person is a human life at a later stage of development

We don't have rights because we are human.

We have rights because we exist as people.

Personhood, not species classification, defines rights.

Is this point clear yet?

Your point is very clear DP. It just doesn't adress the discussion.

Keep your anti choice rhetoric for those who are anti choice.
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
(July 29, 2013 at 5:29 pm)Slave Wrote:
Quote:All acts of murder are ones that involve a human killing another human "not out of self defense or not as a last resort"

Killing a kitten is not an act that involves a human killing another human "not out of self defense or not as a last resort".

Therefore, killing a kitten is not murder.

I agree.

This brings up two more questions. (1) Why is the species of the two parties in an act of murder important?, and (2) What is a human?

On the second question: What is a human?

Is a "human" synonymous with "the human body"? Say a human were in a completely vegetative state and we knew for sure that (1) there is absolutely no human consciousness at all inside of it nor (2) there is absolutely no possibility that person could reawaken from the vegetative state. This "person" is completely fried and is just a drooling set of organs. Would it still be murder to kill such a person?

Or say that the consciousness of a person who once inhabited a human body were somehow stored in a computer. Would it be wrong to take an ax to that computer effectively killing the person stored inside?
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
[quote=
ronedee Wrote:Science doesn't have a good explaination for water

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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
teaearlgreyhot Wrote:This brings up two more questions. (1) Why is the species of the two parties in an act of murder important?

Because if we say it is okay to kill humans, we set ourselves up for suffering, whereas the act of killing another animal poses no such threat. It comes down to human survival. Now, you can argue that humans and animals (indeed, we are part of the animal kingdom) are no different and we all deserve the same inalienable rights, such as that as the right to life. While I can see the rationale behind such an argument, this isn't my immediate concern.

To be more concerned with the matters of your own species is a justifiable and rational position to hold. Extending our conscience to all other animals is a distinctly human trait, and one we can (and arguably should) utilize for the benefit of other species, but this has no footing in a human rights issue.

Quote:On the second question: What is a human?

Is a "human" synonymous with "the human body"? Say a human were in a completely vegetative state and we knew for sure that (1) there is absolutely no human consciousness at all inside of it nor (2) there is absolutely no possibility that person could reawaken from the vegetative state. This "person" is completely fried and is just a drooling set of organs. Would it still be murder to kill such a person?

For all intents and purposes, one could consider euthanasia as a form of murder. Absolutely. What is human is an easy question to answer. A human is a member of the species homo sapiens. A 'living-dead' body such as that of a brain dead victim, is still a human, despite whatever function their brain is capable of performing.

Sentience and self-awareness are two traits of humans, most notably the latter. And as I have already pointed out, our capacity for self-awareness doesn't even kick in until the 15 month mark or so. Humans are not the only forms of life to display sentience, and so is not a distinctly human trait either. What separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our genetics and - more importantly - what those genes are capable of. We all know that humans posses an incredible edge with our brains. We are also highly evolved social creatures, among other things.

Quote:Or say that the consciousness of a person who once inhabited a human body were somehow stored in a computer. Would it be wrong to take an ax to that computer effectively killing the person stored inside?

This is a very interesting question and I would love to be able to answer it with any kind of authority. As the technology for transplanting a human brain into an inorganic body does not yet present itself however, this is impossible to answer at present. Just for the sake of discussion though, I would say that no, I would not classify a synthetic form complete with a human brain as human. I would not consider it murder in this context.

I want to mention consciousness. We still do not know the exact ingredients of consciousness, but I believe it to be a combination of our brains and bodies, not just limited to our brains alone. It would stand to reason that this would be the case as our bodies and brains act in a symbiotic nature to one another. Physical memory, for example, could very well (and most likely does) contribute to what we would classify as consciousness. I can't imagine any kind of physical memory could be transferred to a synthetic form. And so, perhaps consciousness is limited to us in our human bodies. Just a thought.
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
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RE: Why I Am Pro-Life
(July 29, 2013 at 9:38 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Until certain individuals educate themselves on this point (the linked article is a GREAT starting point) and realize just how far the argument actually reaches there's no point debating anything with them.

I gave up hours ago Creed. It's ok. Come have a beer with me.
Everything I needed to know about life I learned on Dagobah.
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