So you admit that you're wrong stimbo and we have here in this thread someone who says that they know that God doesn't exist.

Or were you being dishonest?

(August 10, 2013 at 8:43 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote:

(August 10, 2013 at 8:39 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: @theo Zacharias,


Is this the reason why you think it's valid to believe in god?

This isn't reason that god exists or to think that god exists. This is reason to identify as a theist. And it's unfounded, what you're basically saying is if you call yourself and atheist, bad things will happen, so you'll call yourself a theist.

Yes, I agree that this is not the reason/evidence that God exists (I never said otherwise).

Do you have reason that god exists? That's the one I'm interested in, not why it's inconvenient for you to call yourself atheist.

Quote:I also agree that this is a reason to become a theist. Unfounded? Why? No argument from you above.

What? You think that if I don't believe in god, I should call myself a theist anyway?

Unfounded because this forum is full of atheists whose lives are no worse or better than theists (more or less).

Quote:Are you saying that I should be an atheist even though there is no evidence that God does not exist and even though I know most likely bad things will happen to me if I become an atheist?
I fail to see why this is irrational. For me, the opposite is the one that is irrational.

I'm not interested in what you should call yourself or what you should be.
It's abundantly clear you do not see why it's irrational to believe in god even though there is no reason to. I'm just interested in why you think why a lack of belief in god when there is no reason to believe in one is irrational.[/quote]

(August 10, 2013 at 9:21 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: So we both agnostic.

By all means, continue getting lost in the semantics of definitions that are the complete opposite of reality.

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(August 10, 2013 at 9:21 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: you choose to be an atheist. If this is true, what's your reason?

Most atheists will make the claim that one does not choose to be an atheist, but that is neither here nor there.

My reason for being an atheist is the fact that there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any deity.

(August 10, 2013 at 4:05 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: I think it's not that easy. If there is a phenomenon that seems supernatural, i.e. defy known laws of physic, I think most scientist will first say that either the data is probably flaw or there probably are some hidden variables that we don't know. Even if those 2 possibilities are shown to be wrong, most scientist will say that the known laws of physic is probably wrong and they will develop a new theory that will bring the seemingly-supernatural phenomenon back to natural phenomenon.

I think the reason for this is that over the course of human history, supernatural claims have fallen into one of two categories. There are those claims that cannot be tested or verified, usually the claims of a person or group of an event that occurred once, or never seems to occur when there are opportunities to record or test it. Then there are claims that can be tested or verified, and invariably there turns out to be a logical and/or natural explanation for what happened.

After that happens enough times, I think it's understandable if any seemingly inexplicable phenomenon is approached with the expectation that the underlying cause will be natural, or impossible to verify. There are large numbers of people who will come running with prayer beads in hand when water vapor forms a pattern that looks like the virgin Mary on someone's window. Science can't verify that it isn't a message from god.

Quote:Although I wasn't born a theist, I was born in a theistic environment. The people in my environment can tolerate difference in theism (e.g. difference in belief in God as long as it does not disturb other people) but cannot tolerate atheism. Yes, I agree that this is a wrong view. But this is the reality in my environment.

This seems like a practical approach to a potentially difficult situation. It seems as if you are saying that you have decided to convince yourself that god exists, in order to avoid conflict in your social environment. But you also accept that you don't know if god exists. If, over time, your social environment learns to accommodate the atheist viewpoint, would you express your view that you are an atheist and abandon your belief in god?

(August 10, 2013 at 9:25 am)fr0d0 Wrote: So you admit that you're wrong stimbo and we have here in this thread someone who says that they know that God doesn't exist.

Or were you being dishonest?

On that point, I concede I was in error; although anti-theists are, in my experience, such a fleeting minority (sorry, Maelstrom!) that I find it easy to overlook them. Shoot me, I'm fucking human. Besides, I didn't dismiss their existence so much as wish him luck in his search. Regardless, you'll note that I did go on to clarify the point in my very next post. Did you miss that, or are you being dishonest?

Tiny things please tiny minds, I suppose.

No need for apology, Stimbo, for that would imply I was ashamed of being anti-theist.

If anyone should be ashamed of their beliefs, it should be the theists for having such ridiculous beliefs for which they have no evidence to support.

(August 10, 2013 at 9:32 am)Tonus Wrote:

(August 10, 2013 at 4:05 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: I think it's not that easy. If there is a phenomenon that seems supernatural, i.e. defy known laws of physic, I think most scientist will first say that either the data is probably flaw or there probably are some hidden variables that we don't know. Even if those 2 possibilities are shown to be wrong, most scientist will say that the known laws of physic is probably wrong and they will develop a new theory that will bring the seemingly-supernatural phenomenon back to natural phenomenon.

I think the reason for this is that over the course of human history, supernatural claims have fallen into one of two categories. There are those claims that cannot be tested or verified, usually the claims of a person or group of an event that occurred once, or never seems to occur when there are opportunities to record or test it. Then there are claims that can be tested or verified, and invariably there turns out to be a logical and/or natural explanation for what happened.

After that happens enough times, I think it's understandable if any seemingly inexplicable phenomenon is approached with the expectation that the underlying cause will be natural, or impossible to verify. There are large numbers of people who will come running with prayer beads in hand when water vapor forms a pattern that looks like the virgin Mary on someone's window. Science can't verify that it isn't a message from god.

You response to my first post. The topic of this thread is actually "What would it take to prove you wrong". It seems (some, not all) atheist say that it's clear and easy to them what evidence of God existence should be like. For instance, just show us a supernatural phenomenon that can defy current known laws of physics. The purpose of my post is to show that it's not that easy. Do you agree that it's easy? If you do, could you please tell us just one phenomenon that, if observed and valid, will prove the existence of God? Or you agree that it's not that easy?

(August 10, 2013 at 9:32 am)Tonus Wrote:

Quote:Although I wasn't born a theist, I was born in a theistic environment. The people in my environment can tolerate difference in theism (e.g. difference in belief in God as long as it does not disturb other people) but cannot tolerate atheism. Yes, I agree that this is a wrong view. But this is the reality in my environment.

This seems like a practical approach to a potentially difficult situation. It seems as if you are saying that you have decided to convince yourself that god exists, in order to avoid conflict in your social environment. But you also accept that you don't know if god exists.

My post related to this is actually started with "let's start with something simple" (or something like that, I don't quite remember). It means that this is not the only reason.
There are other reasons. One of them is being a *good* theist, I have more motivation to do good. Note that I'm not saying in any way that atheist can't do good. I'm saying that being a good theist, I will have more motivation. Of course there is also a *bad* theist who have more motivation to do bad. If there is only 2 choices: become a bad theist or atheist, then I will certainly choose to be an atheist. But this is not the case.
Also being a theist, I will have more influence (compare to atheist) to the bad or irrational theist to become a good & rational theist.

(August 10, 2013 at 9:32 am)Tonus Wrote: If, over time, your social environment learns to accommodate the atheist viewpoint, would you express your view that you are an atheist and abandon your belief in god?

Depend, is there any reason to become an atheist?
I'm sorry, I don't embrace the default disbelief position, i.e. that you should disbelief on something if there's no evidence either way.
Without any reason for that view, to me that's a dogmatic position. I won't embrace it unless someone can give me a valid reason for that.

(August 10, 2013 at 9:56 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: Depend, is there any reason to become an atheist?

Yes, the logical reason that there is absolutely no evidence to support the existence of a deity.

(August 10, 2013 at 9:56 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: I'm sorry, I don't embrace the default disbelief position, i.e. that you should disbelief on something if there's no evidence either way.

Then feel free to remain ignorant.

(August 10, 2013 at 9:56 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: Without any reason for that view.

There is a valid reason. You are merely willfully ignorant and blind to the reality of it.

(August 10, 2013 at 9:38 am)Maelstrom Wrote: No need for apology, Stimbo, for that would imply I was ashamed of being anti-theist.

If anyone should be ashamed of their beliefs, it should be the theists for having such ridiculous beliefs for which they have no evidence to support.

Such implications were never in my thoughts. In my clumsy fashion I felt I had to apologise for lumping you in my gross stereotyping and for the fact that, in the Five-A-Side game of life, I would generally tend to pick anti-theists last of all simply because I forget you're there.

Needless to say, I concur on your points here.

(August 10, 2013 at 9:56 am)Theo Zacharias Wrote: The purpose of my post is to show that it's not that easy. Do you agree that it's easy? If you do, could you please tell us just one phenomenon that, if observed and valid, will prove the existence of God? Or you agree that it's not that easy?

You want atheists to come up with something to prove your god and then discuss whether or not we'd consider it as valid proof?

Seriously? Please tell me you didn't say that with a straight face!