(August 25, 2013 at 1:48 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: Yes, I know. That's what I believed. And now I don't. Because there's no reason to actually believe it's true.

You can see how the world has over the last 2000 years surely? You can see how we're edging albeit hesitatingly towards Christ. That is God at work through humanity bringing us closer to communion with him, and we have evidence for this we can see. We understand we're far from the ideal but that's because we know what the ideal is, the ideal is Christ and Christ is within and among us right now. Those who belonged to the body of Christ lead the way forward and this changed the world for the better. You don't with the results. When Christianity caused problem it was only the religion that was the problem.

All I see are people believing the religious fairy tale lie.

(August 25, 2013 at 2:00 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: All I see are people believing the religious fairy tale lie.

Are we better morally now than we were 2000, 500, 100 years ago? Have we made progress toward something? I certainly think we have and it's clear to see. This isn't the God we to deny there is a real power behind this.

You are falsely attributing a deity to the evolution of morality that has occurred naturally within society.

(August 25, 2013 at 2:07 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: You are falsely attributing a deity to the evolution of morality that has occurred naturally within society.

Why didn't we just naturally stay as we always were? Technology won't account for this.

(August 25, 2013 at 2:10 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Why didn't we just naturally stay as we always were?

As we evolve, so does our morality. Morality shifts and changes along with the currents of society. Man did not need theism to inform him that for clan survival it was beneficial to not murder one's own clan. Rather, man figured out for himself that it was wrong to murder. One must not place too much emphasis on the intelligence of man if he thinks the only way to evolve is with the guidance of a deity.

(August 25, 2013 at 1:58 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: You can see how we're edging albeit hesitatingly towards Christ. That is God at work through humanity bringing us closer to communion with him, and we have evidence for this we can see.

Yes, Let's all pause and take a moment
to thank god and religion for mankind's
impending destruction. Lets!

(August 25, 2013 at 1:58 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 25, 2013 at 1:48 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: Yes, I know. That's what I believed. And now I don't. Because there's no reason to actually believe it's true.

You can see how the world has over the last 2000 years surely? You can see how we're edging albeit hesitatingly towards Christ. That is God at work through humanity bringing us closer to communion with him, and we have evidence for this we can see. We understand we're far from the ideal but that's because we know what the ideal is, the ideal is Christ and Christ is within and among us right now. Those who belonged to the body of Christ lead the way forward and this changed the world for the better. You don't with the results. When Christianity caused problem it was only the religion that was the problem.

What proof do you have that it was the teachings of Christ that improved anything?

(August 25, 2013 at 1:58 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 25, 2013 at 1:48 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: Yes, I know. That's what I believed. And now I don't. Because there's no reason to actually believe it's true.

You can see how the world has over the last 2000 years surely? You can see how we're edging albeit hesitatingly towards Christ. That is God at work through humanity bringing us closer to communion with him, and we have evidence for this we can see. We understand we're far from the ideal but that's because we know what the ideal is, the ideal is Christ and Christ is within and among us right now. Those who belonged to the body of Christ lead the way forward and this changed the world for the better. You don't with the results. When Christianity caused problem it was only the religion that was the problem.

OK. We might have a misconception about evidence here. When We have something to reason by, We have evidence to support our reasons. The evidence is something anyone can object to. Everyone can intake the information, though not everyone will process that information the same way. Example, if I had a tennis ball in my hand, everyone who can see would be logically inclined to agree that I had a tennis ball. If someone were blind, they can touch the ball. Not all evidence is sensual. Proof of mathematical solutions is simply a byproduct from a standard of rules (like BEDMAS).

There is also evidence that anyone can subject to. Such as, a testimonial. An anecdote. A sharp pain. This is information that is clear to 1 person, but unknown and inexperienced by another. You cannot explain colour to someone who has never seen, nor can they confirm the correct definition with You, because they will NEVER know colour.

Related video:

Quote:As we evolve, so does our morality.

We're evolving toward a Christlike nature that's what I think is happening.

Quote:Morality shifts and changes along with the currents of society.

But we're talking about sustained change over thousands of years. The alternative ideologies such as Theocracy, Communism, Fascism and so have all been crushed. Opposition to progress we have made has been crushed also and we're continuing to improve. It's not like say racial equality is a passing fad or we'll bring back slavery somewhere down the line these are permanent modifications to our collective human nature.

"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit." Matthew 12:33

You know the good fruit from the good tree when you see it. Not to say the other beliefs in God/religion produced bad fruit but they didn't have the same level of impact upon the world.

Quote:Man did not need theism to inform him that for clan survival it was beneficial to not murder one's own clan. Rather, man figured out for himself that it was wrong to murder. One must not place too much emphasis on the intelligence of man if he thinks the only way to evolve is with the guidance of a deity.

I don't really think we think it's wrong to murder someone because it would practically disadvantageous. We think it's wrong because we would feel compassion and remorse for them (hence more Christlike). People in ancient societies had a moral system based on individual honour and social status, much like the kind of morality you will see in the Jewish Old Testament. Also revenge/honour killing were fairly common place among other things. But we have made real progress of some kind and I think relating it to Christ/God/the higher power is perfectly well justified as the message and the outcome appear to fit together, so there is some level of real truth of something very powerful here not a blind belief in fairy-tales as you think it is.

(August 25, 2013 at 2:23 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: What proof do you have that it was the teachings of Christ that improved anything?

I don't think it's just the teachings we're talking about some kind of spiritual transformation through Christ. We are becoming more Christlike without even being particularly aware that is happening to us. Even atheists are along for the ride.