The problem is not that we are interested in the issue of the existence of God. Queerly, the problem is that He is very interested in the issue of our existence !

(October 2, 2013 at 6:11 pm)Simsim Wrote: By saying "God is everywhere" I meant to say that people everywhere talk and behave according to his supposed existence.

You mean like following his commandment about "thou shalt not kill" while being a front line soldier in the Army, "thou shalt not steal" as they embezzle money from the bank they work in, or ignore the poor & homeless and hoard massive wealth after Jesus said not to?

(October 2, 2013 at 6:54 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: You mean like following his commandment about "thou shalt not kill" while being a front line soldier in the Army, "thou shalt not steal" as they embezzle money from the bank they work in, or ignore the poor & homeless and hoard massive wealth after Jesus said not to?

If people kill or steal that is because they are bad not because they don't follow God's commandments. If they don't that's because they are good not because they follow God's commandments. If they do other strange stuff like wasting time in pointless actions or preventing themselves from making love that's because they follow God's commandments not because they are good or bad.

Well I for one don't. I only really do it here, and whn I meet my grandfather irl. Still me and him debate everything till we turn red in the face, and have always been like that.

But it's funny how bad people are still bad people even if they profess belief in this God and act like he is present... when other people are around.

You only think that atheists spend a lot of time debating god because that's probably the only time we identify as atheists. I spend a lot of time doing a lot of things, people assume I'm an atheist because most of the people I'm around are atheists.

I love having a place which is (usually) a refuge from the daily bombardment of religious bullshit.

(October 3, 2013 at 10:58 am)Doubting Thomas Wrote: I love having a place which is (usually) a refuge from the daily bombardment of religious bullshit.

Really? Have you seen some of the threads we have had on here lately?

I keep finding myself checking the logo at the top of the page to see if the first "A" hasn't disappeared.

I'm starting to miss our resident theists frankly - they've gone rather quiet.

Because it was once a significant part of my life and learning that it is acceptable and rational to disbelieve helped me to shirk my beliefs and maybe someone else will benefit too. Because I think this is a better life to live and has helped make me a better person.

I don't go looking for theists on the streets or in their churches to lambast with my religious opinion either. But I do have to put up with the street preachers who are trying to scare people into their cult.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: This to me, borders on the height of irrationality. Let me give my views, look at some common responses, and answer to those.

By definition, under Atheism, this is the ONLY life we have, therefore, every second is precious. Why would you waste precious time debating about a being you don't believe exists? Isnt it a real waste of your life?

I have been told that under Atheism, the meaning of life is subjective. That is, you give your own meaning to your own life. If playing the piano gives meaning to the pianist, then so be it. If playing baseball gives someone meaning, then good luck to them. If helping friends and family gives you meaning in life, then good luck to them. We cannot tell them it is wrong. It is subjective and gives them meaning. If Christianity gives people meaning in their lives, then who is anyone to tell them no? Why spend time arguing something that gives people meaning in their life?

Now, here are some of the common objections I get.

"Religious get tax breaks, they shouldn't." , Well, a major function of the Christian Church is charitable works. Like every other charity, why shouldn't the Christian church also get tax breaks as a major function of their work is charity.

"Because they impact on policy". Well, I agree church and state should be separated, however, why just like every other person, don't Christians also have the right to voice their opinion? Aren't people all for freedom of speech? Doesn't everyone have a right to voice their opinion? However, once this goes to govt, it becomes more of a question of politics rather than philosophy/theology.

"Religion stuns scientific thought / discovery", well some of our greatest scientists have been Theists. Science is the study of the natural world. The gospels do not tell us that we should not observe the world. Under Theology, God gave us rational minds to observe the universe. Science is built on the very foundation of Christianity. Dr Francis Collins was the director of the genome project to find cures for disease.

These are just a few.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: This to me, borders on the height of irrationality. Let me give my views, look at some common responses, and answer to those.

By definition, under Atheism, this is the ONLY life we have, therefore, every second is precious. Why would you waste precious time debating about a being you don't believe exists? Isnt it a real waste of your life?

Actually, atheism (you don't need to capitalize it, it's not a proper noun) doesn't preclude beliefe in an afterlife, only belief in gods. Some atheists believe in reincarnation or ghosts, for instance. Although they'd get a drubbing around here. Doing something you enjoy isn't wasting time. And the internet isn't a good guide to the percentage of atheists who spend time talking about gods, God, or religion; or the amount of time spent doing so. This is an atheist discussion board, it's skewed to atheists interested in issued relating to atheism and people who want to challenge atheists.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: I have been told that under Atheism, the meaning of life is subjective. That is, you give your own meaning to your own life. If playing the piano gives meaning to the pianist, then so be it. If playing baseball gives someone meaning, then good luck to them. If helping friends and family gives you meaning in life, then good luck to them.

You're thinking of existentialism, I think. A lot of atheists are existentialists, but atheism isn't a synonym for existentialism. An atheist can have any philosophy consistent with not believing in any gods...and I'm not sure about that, because consistency isn't required to be an atheist (or theist), either. Note Christian admirers of Ayn Rand's phiolosophy.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: We cannot tell them it is wrong. It is subjective and gives them meaning. If Christianity gives people meaning in their lives, then who is anyone to tell them no?

There's nothing about ethical subjectivism that precludes one from concluding that some way people spend their time is wrong (as you are doing here). It is a form of moral relativism, and one thing can be good or bad in relation to another. Unlike moral skepticism, in ethical subjectivism a moral statement can be true or false, in relation to the subject. To a cat, catching and eating mice is fine; while to a mouse it's horrible. Both statements are true (hypothetically speaking) from the point of view of the cat and mouse.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: Why spend time arguing something that gives people meaning in their life?

It depends on the person, I suppose. In my case, because I think it matters if what you believe is true. And, I enjoy the mental exercise. However, note that you won't find me on theist forums challenging the theists, or going door-to-door to tell people the neutral news.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: Now, here are some of the common objections I get.

You do this so much you've developed a list of common objections?

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: "Religious get tax breaks, they shouldn't." , Well, a major function of the Christian Church is charitable works. Like every other charity, why shouldn't the Christian church also get tax breaks as a major function of their work is charity.

I dunno. I think they should get the same tax breaks as any other 501©3 organization as long as they follow the same rules. Are you saying this is something it's irrational to spend discussion time on?

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: "Because they impact on policy". Well, I agree church and state should be separated, however, why just like every other person, don't Christians also have the right to voice their opinion?

They do. They don't have a right to a government-provided podium, microphone, and venue though...and they have a record of frequently trying to get those things.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: Aren't people all for freedom of speech? Doesn't everyone have a right to voice their opinion? However, once this goes to govt, it becomes more of a question of politics rather than philosophy/theology.

Everyone has a right to voice their opinion. That includes the right to criticize what other people say. It's people who wish to suppress critcism who are actually against free speech, because they've mistaken a right to speak without anyone using force to stop them with a right to say whatever they want without anyone else publically disagreeing with them.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: "Religion stuns scientific thought / discovery", well some of our greatest scientists have been Theists. Science is the study of the natural world. The gospels do not tell us that we should not observe the world. Under Theology, God gave us rational minds to observe the universe. Science is built on the very foundation of Christianity. Dr Francis Collins was the director of the genome project to find cures for disease.

Theism doesn't keep you from becoming a fine scientist. Christianists altering public school science textbooks to suit their religious preferences could well have that effect.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: These are just a few.

None of them seem to have anything to do with justifying debate about the existence of God.

Welcome, btw.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:58 am)Tortino Wrote: "The theory of intelligent design is simply an effort to empirically detect whether the "apparent design" in nature acknowledged by virtually all biologists is genuine design (the product of an intelligent cause) or is simply the product of an undirected process such as natural selection acting on random variations.

Intelligent Design isn't a theory, it's a hypothesis. One that has failed every test proposed to support it. Without empirical support, it doesn't amount to more than an argument from incredulity (I personally don't see how that could have happened unless it was designed by someone, therefore it was designed by someone).

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: Creationism typically starts with a religious text and tries to see how the findings of science can be reconciled to it. Intelligent design starts with the empirical evidence of nature and seeks to ascertain what inferences can be drawn from that evidence. Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent "

One of the more amusing results of the Dover trial was the revelation that the intelligent design textbook being used was just a creationist textbook with references to creation changed to 'intelligent design'. Believe me, the Discovery Institute started with a religious text. The intent of intelligent design as it is promoted by the DI is to soften students up for creationism. See the 'wedge document'.

(October 2, 2013 at 8:29 am)Tortino Wrote: In all honesty, how many times does a Mormon or Jehova's witness knock on your door? Where I am , maybe once every 5 years. Is that really such a big problem in your life?

Why would you conclude from a comment about being more polite to religious visitors than to sales people that he considers solicitation a big problem in his life?

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(October 2, 2013 at 9:34 am)Tortino Wrote: looking through this forum and several hundred others (evidence) says otherwise.

It's only evidence of your contention if internet forums that cater to a demographic are representative of the entire demographic. If you really want to know if this sort of thing is typical of atheists, start by determining the number of different atheists on forums discussing the existence of God. You should probably stick to one country, the USA for instance, because working the numbers wil be easier that way. Then divide by the total atheist population of the country (in the USA that's about 8 million self-identified atheists).

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(October 2, 2013 at 9:42 am)Tortino Wrote: Furthermore, who determines if something is designed or not? What are the parameters of determining if something is designed? Is it a scientific question or a philosophical one?

It's a scientific one. People who promote intelligent design only have to propose one biological feature that can't be accounted for by the modern synthesis of biological evolution to get traction. Until they can do that, they're spinning their wheels. And the reason they hold on to intelligenct design despite being unable to find a single biological feature that can be explained only by their hypothesis, is because they have an agenda that isn't following the evidence wherever it leads.

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(October 2, 2013 at 3:21 pm)bladevalant546 Wrote: On Ivy post, I am trying to start a secular group here. Since Secular students alliance is the only on in the Louisiana northern region. Bible belt sucks at times.

When I started my group, Meetup was free. It isn't anymore, but it's still a good tool for forming a group if you can afford it. I think it's like $30-40 a month now for three sites. I only have to pay $9 a month because I get a grandfathered price.

OTH, starting a FB page is free.