(October 18, 2013 at 6:54 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: God was never made or created nor does he exist in any physical form as any kind of process within time and space. What he does is created time, space, matter/energy, physical existence and all being. Without God nothing would exist as he is the reason for existence. Without God there is no reason, cause or anything to get the ball rolling to begin with.

So, since you already believe in eternal things that don't need a cause, what's your justification for ignoring the idea that the universe itself might be such a thing, and attributing that eternalness solely to god? You must actually have a reason, right?

(October 17, 2013 at 4:38 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote: Once again you're reverting to telling people your beliefs and working from a position that this is how things are.
There were plenty of non believers before the advent of modern science, granted they weren't very outspoken because death and torture are fantastic ways of controlling the 'heathens'. Don't blame me for using the tools at my disposal to disprove your god, that's like trying to shame a man for disproving magical faeries.

The vast majority of the 'Heathen' converted peacefully to the 'White Christ' as called it, though it did take a few hundred years to accept and there were numerous regressions back to the old ways. The only attempted forced conversion through conquest would have been Lithuania and the northern Crusade, in the end they just settled for marrying the Lithuanian king to a Christian Polish princess and that did the trick. There was the Spanish conquest of the Americas but any forced conversion of the natives was an afterthought as they were just after the land/gold.

Quote:Where did your god come from? Did he create himself? Are there an infinite line of gods creating other gods who in turn create more?

He didn't come from anywhere he is the creator/reason/purpose of existence itself. You can't be doing without God, it would be like house without foundations.

Quote:You, and all other theists that use this argument are off your damned rockers.

Are you sure you're not off your rocker to say "It was all an unintentional accident!" Really? What makes you say that?

Quote:How can you bloody well shrug your shoulders at years upon years of scientific study and achievement and say that god gave it to us and we can't possibly prove or disprove his existence with it? How damned convenient.

God created the natural order and science studies the natural order. The natural order would strongly hint toward purposeful creation if you look at the whole picture and our own place within it, small though our place is. But you can take the universe as a whole to have been created for life not just our one planet.

Quote:You can't take the creation of the universe and simply attribute it to some imaginary figure, what a giant pile of lazy shit that is.

Not as lazy as saying "The universe just exists for no reason and it exists the way it is because it's a coincidence of blind luck".

Quote:"Oh things are just far too complex to simply be there. It must have been Zeus!'

Even if Zeus ever existed he was just a created being like ourselves. Just an immortal man basically he did not create the universe the universe created him. It's important to be able to distinguish the difference even if you want to claim God is a myth, you'll be able to present a better argument.

Quote:You shake your faith at such a magnitude of evidence to the contrary that it's fucking laughable, and when it suits you theists you attempt to conform the theories of science to your god saying you never said they couldn't work in unison. Anything to sell your product right?

If you have "contrary evidence" against the existence of God feel free to present it. But no you don't have any such thing just your own ideology. Explaining the truth isn't selling a product, it's explaining the truth. Yes it's a good truth essentially but why can't it be?

SOC Wrote:Without God nothing would exist as he is the reason for existence.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"Without Thor lightening would exist as he is the reason for lightening."

"Without Posiden hurricanes would not exist as he is the reason for hurricanes"

"Without Allah nothing would exist as he is the reason for existence"

How is it you rightfully reject those naked assertions and absurd claims but are too stupid to aim that same logic your rightfully use to reject those claims at your own superstition? If you are smart enough to rightfully reject the claims above, you have it in you to look in the mirror. It isn't that you cant do it, you simply don't want to do it. I think you have it in you and hope you do for your own sake.

You will feel a lot better once you realize you don't have to defend that comic book.

(October 18, 2013 at 7:21 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: Are you sure you're not off your rocker to say "It was all an unintentional accident!" Really? What makes you say that?

Are you seriously unaware of how completely dishonest it is to continue telling us we believe that when you've been corrected on it multiple times?

I could have sworn that your religion had prohibitions on lying, doesn't it? I would have thought you'd want to avoid sinning, but I guess you're a terrible christian as well as a terrible debater.

(October 18, 2013 at 7:21 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: He didn't come from anywhere he is the creator/reason/purpose of existence itself. You can't be doing without God, it would be like house without foundations.

Yes, you keep saying this and we know it's what you believe, but what is the justification for it? What evidence would lead to that conclusion?

(October 18, 2013 at 7:04 am)Esquilax Wrote: So, since you already believe in eternal things that don't need a cause, what's your justification for ignoring the idea that the universe itself might be such a thing

It would entirely lack a context for it's existence it would mean we're an accidental byproduct. Freewill, morality, good and evil would be all be fucked if that were true. I don't see any good reason why that ought to be true particularly as we know our own universe is finite and had a beginning/point of creation. If it was eternal in itself it could have just been eternal in itself so that suggests an eternal force, particularly when you take into account the balance of the natural order and the complex nature of life. Yes there was evolution but you can see that as a progression from simplicity to ever increasing level of sophistication resulting in humanity, or something like humanity ultimately. You don't have to take Genesis 100% literally it only has to be true in general.

Quote:, and attributing that eternalness solely to god? You must actually have a reason, right?

I'm not saying you can't have an eternal universe but I would object to it on good solid grounds. It isn't wishful thinking either as it makes more sense for the universe to have an eternal context and some kind of purpose in the way it was specifically formed that isn't beyond the bounds of reason at all.

(October 18, 2013 at 8:01 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: I'm not saying you can't have an eternal universe but I would object to it on good solid grounds. It isn't wishful thinking either as it makes more sense for the universe to have an eternal context and some kind of purpose in the way it was specifically formed that isn't beyond the bounds of reason at all.

And there lies exposed the root of all the trouble. When the Universe starts to give a shit what one species of jumped-up, strategically-shaved monkey with an overactive thyroid, scratching out a living on the dry parts of the skin of one insignificant ball of rock and iron orbiting a nondescript yellow dwarf star, wishes made sense, then we can do lunch and talk about my conversion to the priesthood.

"It would entirely lack a context for it's existence it would mean we're an accidental byproduct. Freewill, morality, good and evil would be all be fucked if that were true. I don't see any good reason why that ought to be true particularly as we know our own universe is finite and had a beginning/point of creation. If it was eternal in itself it could have just been eternal in itself so that suggests an eternal force, particularly when you take into account the balance of the natural order and the complex nature of life. Yes there was evolution but you can see that as a progression from simplicity to ever increasing level of sophistication resulting in humanity, or something like humanity ultimately. You don't have to take Genesis 100% literally it only has to be true in general."

What I am seeing here is something stamping your feet and demanding that there is reason for everything. Sadly - you can't provide any evidence for it.

I see no link to your subsequent statement "Freewill, morality, good and evil would be all be fucked if that were true."

Whether we are here through accident or design it is up to us to make the most of it. Most of the best people I know were accidents - including my own daughter, and me come to that. That fact doesn't reduce their value at all.

"I'm not saying you can't have an eternal universe but I would object to it on good solid grounds. It isn't wishful thinking either as it makes more sense for the universe to have an eternal context and some kind of purpose in the way it was specifically formed that isn't beyond the bounds of reason at all."

Makes more sense to whom? To you? Is that the criterion you think foremost in the creation of the universe? It makes less sense to me - does that count for nothing?

Lets approach this from another direction. You say the universe is designed (for us). I say - if this is an example of designed for us I'd sack the designer. You might want to look up a recent thread of mine called "would you employ this designer?"

That thread is a jokey one but the issues it raises are very real.

You might also want to look up Lawrence Krauss' video on youtube which I think is called "the worst possible universe." It is a rebuttal of the "designed for us" universe and its rather good.

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Stimbo - that is going in my signature - brilliant!!!

(October 18, 2013 at 7:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: See if you can spot the pattern.

"Without Thor lightening would exist as he is the reason for lightening."

"Without Posiden hurricanes would not exist as he is the reason for hurricanes"

You see the interesting thing is that the Bible/Torah explains that these nature controlling gods don't exist instead what you have is a natural order created by God. It doesn't mean it has to be some kind of deism where God is unable to interact with his creatures or reveal himself either.

Quote:"Without Allah nothing would exist as he is the reason for existence"

Allah is just the Arabic word for God it's the same thing. They take Mohammed as God final prophet of God after Jesus and I don't really agree that he was but that's a small nitpick. If you want to convert to Islam that's fine I guess, it can be done.





A full conversion there, not a partial conversion, no messing around.

Quote:How is it you rightfully reject those naked assertions and absurd claims but are too stupid to aim that same logic your rightfully use to reject those claims at your own superstition?

I would reject claims that are counter to God so polytheism is lumped with atheism. Islam is potentially a religion I'd be interested in though it has various elements I would object to like Shariah Law, and I'm not sure about Mohammed moral credentials though certainly he did say/do some good things.

Quote: If you are smart enough to rightfully reject the claims above, you have it in you to look in the mirror.

I reject atheism, polytheism (idol worship), and I have a few difference of opinion with other religions but I like to look at what I have in common with them.

Quote: It isn't that you cant do it, you simply don't want to do it.

You could believe in God if you wanted but simply don't want to do it. Unless you're saying you don't have the option?

Quote: I think you have it in you and hope you do for your own sake.

I have the free choice to believe what I want either way, do you? If you can't then you're brainwashed.

Quote:You will feel a lot better once you realize you don't have to defend that comic book.

It's a Holy Book on a comic book, not a book of science and not a book of history.

(October 18, 2013 at 7:21 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:You can't take the creation of the universe and simply attribute it to some imaginary figure, what a giant pile of lazy shit that is.

Not as lazy as saying "The universe just exists for no reason and it exists the way it is because it's a coincidence of blind luck".

I agree that to claim "it was this" with no further explanation or determination to learn more is lazy. It's no less so for claims of god than for claims of "blind luck." The people who are not lazy and who are not satisfied with "it just is" are the ones who gather knowledge and understanding and try to pass it on to others who will continue to advance that understanding. As theists often note, a lot of scientists and researchers of the past, who made important and significant discoveries, were believers in god. Which is to say, they were not likely to be biased against finding god in the cosmic machine.

And yet they haven't. The non-lazy people, even when they were not keen on eliminating god from the picture, discovered a universe that works just fine without god. The continuing advancement of knowledge and understanding has moved us further in that direction, to the point that theists have moved god into his own pocket dimension from which he only peeks out when he's sure no one is going to spot him. He no longer resides on top of a mountain. He no longer lingers above the dome of the sky. He no longer uses the planet as his footstool. He no longer wanders about in heaven. He now keeps to himself in his undetectable castle in his undetectable universe with its undetectable entrances to this one, and occasionally causes condensation to form the image of the Virgin Mary upon a kitchen window on a chilly autumn morning.

Seems to me as if he's gotten quite lazy himself.