(October 19, 2013 at 7:56 am)Dolphins are the best Wrote: God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. A limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment.

Why do you assume Sin are limited? What in the bible states that sins are limited.

Quote:God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment.

So.. what do you think of life in prisionment? or do you perfer the death penality?

Quote:A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation

God only 'Created' Adam and He was perfect. then from Adam produced Eve. After the fall Adam and Eve Reproduced.. Meaning we are not a creation of God we are a reproduction of what God created.. Or more over a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy...

Quote: to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible as the properties of a cubic sphere or invisible pink unicorn.

Again in order for you to make this claim you must first demonstated that sins are finite.

Quote: Any true loving being would never condemn his own children

What makes you think 'we' are all his Children? Jesus is many different parables draws a line between God's Children and everyone else. He said God's children are like wheat, the rest are like weeds or chaff, or we are like sheep, and the rest goats, and so on.

Quote:to everlasting torment especially for something menial as "faith" with so little evidence he is showing to you and some are brought up in different religions, some have even heard of it, if we are to believe the Christians these people will be an a lake of fire for eternity!!

We are responsiable for what we have been given. It is to Christ we are judged and not to mans standard. That said a negitive judgement will see someone to Hell forever.

Quote:So how is it fair to put them into a "lake of fire, and brimstone" for the rest of eternity!!

Because they do not want to serve in Heaven.

Quote:No just God would judge a man by his believe rather than this actions. This is why the Christian God is not fit for worship.

If God did this no one could enter Heaven.

Quote:If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God.

lol, The person who said that is a short sight. For all fruit the moment that it leaves the tree begins to spoil. what keeps it from going bad is our willingness to perserve it one way or another. The same is true here. If you are willing to perserve yourself then you will follow the steps needed for perservation. If not it is only a matter of time before you spoil.

Quote:What is perfect cannot become imperfect,

This is more short sighted foolishness. If you buy a new I phone 5c, and take it out of the box, it is perfect is it not? Now what if you run it over with your car or drop it in the pool? is it still perfect? what was perfect is now damaged or flawed.

Quote:so humans must have been created imperfect.

God created Man singular, Man in an imperfect state reproduced with flaws intact. A Loving God provided attonement to cover said imperfections.

Quote:What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans.

You misunderstand the word perfect. Perfection is not a standard apart from God. Perfection Describes whatever God is.

Quote:Source: www.evilbible.com

If this is truly your source then you should expect a complete misrepersentation of God and the bible.

(October 21, 2013 at 1:29 am)Beta Ray Bill Wrote: If we're to live trillions of years in heaven or hell, what is the point of 70 years of life on Earth? It seems kind of pointless, doesn't it? Shouldn't we be judged over how we act over the next 1,000,000,000,000 years than the next 10?

Indeed. This brings up the question of free will. Those who "pass the test" now and are ushered into a new world would still be capable of sin, unless they had that capability removed. To remove it limits our options and thus is a form of behavioral control, which means that humanity would no longer have free will. Which means that god could have taken a shortcut by programming humanity this way in the first place and skipped the part where billions of people suffered either temporarily or eternally.

Or he doesn't make any changes to humanity at all, knowing that each person is a ticking time bomb, ready to start the whole mess over again. Neither option seems logical to me.

(October 21, 2013 at 10:14 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote: to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible as the properties of a cubic sphere or invisible pink unicorn.

Again in order for you to make this claim you must first demonstated that sins are finite.

How about you first demonstrate that sin exists.

(October 21, 2013 at 11:00 am)Rationalman Wrote:

(October 21, 2013 at 10:14 am)Drich Wrote: Again in order for you to make this claim you must first demonstated that sins are finite.

How about you first demonstrate that sin exists.

The existance of sin is a given in the OP, as is God, Heaven and Hell. therefore the existance of sin need not be discussed as per the orginal post.

That said:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin

Or will you argue the defination found in this reference magterial with 'I still dont believe in it provide me with something else.'

(October 21, 2013 at 10:14 am)Drich Wrote:

(October 19, 2013 at 7:56 am)Dolphins are the best Wrote: God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. A limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment.

Why do you assume Sin are limited? What in the bible states that sins are limited.

Quote:God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment.

So.. what do you think of life in prisionment? or do you perfer the death penality?

Quote:A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation

God only 'Created' Adam and He was perfect. then from Adam produced Eve. After the fall Adam and Eve Reproduced.. Meaning we are not a creation of God we are a reproduction of what God created.. Or more over a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy...

First of all, you WERE doing so well with the spelling. Your posts were nearly perfectly readable there for awhile. What happened?
Secondly, the lifelong imprisonment response is the first good argument I've ever seen come from your fingertips. I disagree of course, but good job none the less.
Thirdly, and the real reason your post caught my eye:

(October 21, 2013 at 10:14 am)Drich Wrote:

'Dolphins Wrote:to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible as the properties of a cubic sphere or invisible pink unicorn.

Again in order for you to make this claim you must first demonstated that sins are finite.

This is an example of why you have this reputation:
It is completely reasonable to make a logical conclusion based on the facts presented by your bible: By your own admission, your god allows for a creation that is NOT remotely perfect ("a copy of a copy of a copy"). Therefore, this being is mortal and finite. Being a finite creature, it is not possible for this being to re-create infinitely. Meaning, the sins that are committed are not committed for all time. (The man's car I stole or even the woman I raped are not suffering these sins in the next life.) More so, a perfect god would be free of malicious vendettas against peons who sinned during a finite life. In fact, regardless of how great those sins may have seemed during that lifetime, they would not even register as a blip on the meter of billions of human lives on the eternal plain of existence.

Now unless you're going to pull this action: , than you can't realistically deny that I have demonstrated to any reasonable logical person that sins are indeed finite.

(October 21, 2013 at 12:12 pm)Cinjin Wrote: First of all, you WERE doing so well with the spelling. Your posts were nearly perfectly readable there for awhile. What happened?

different computer. the Ipad has auto correct.

Quote:Secondly, the lifelong imprisonment response is the first good argument I've ever seen come from your fingertips. I disagree of course, but good job none the less.
Thirdly, and the real reason your post caught my eye:

Just to elaborate: If we can imprision someone for a single finite crime, committed against another person then why is God prohibited for doing the same?

Quote:This is an example of why you have this reputation:
It is completely reasonable to make a logical conclusion based on the facts presented by your bible: By your own admission, your god allows for a creation that is NOT remotely perfect ("a copy of a copy of a copy").

Now finish this thought with the bible as your guide. Because we are flawed Christ died on our behalf so we do not have to. all we must do is accept what He has done in our stead.

Quote:Therefore, this being is mortal and finite.

But we are not. This phase of our existance is finite, but 'we' have the potential of being infinite. hence the need for a life sentence. (for however long 'life' happens to be.)

Quote: Being a finite creature, it is not possible for this being to re-create infinitely. Meaning, the sins that are committed are not committed for all time. (The man's car I stole or even the woman I raped are not suffering these sins in the next life.)

and what of those who we give 10 or 20 life sentences? In reality one life sentence says that no mater how long you live you will be imprisioned. the idea here is that a ted bundy or a chuck mansion has done something so evil that we are trying to communicate that if they lived 20 life times they could not be imprisioned long enough to pay for what they did in the short/finite amount of time they lived outside of jail.

The same can be said here. The 'life in Hell' sentence only seems unjust because we have trivialized our 'sins' with our relitive morality. Much like Mansion or Bundy has done. But, even so when compared to an absolute standard (The law) their excuses or personal justifications meant nothing. Because the ones in authority were in a position to levy a judgement to take away their personal freedom for the rest of their existance.

Quote: More so, a perfect god would be free of malicious vendettas against peons who sinned during a finite life.

again how do you know that your sins do not echo out through eternity? Meaning how do you know the crap you will not repent of here in this life will not carry over into the next? Meaning if you were a ted bundy who killed and ate people, and you served a life sentence, died and was brought back or died and better yet was resurrected, you would not continue to 'feed' on people in the next life? How is turning an unrepentant sinner like a hitler or a ted bundy type loose on the population of Heaven a righteous act?

Quote:In fact, regardless of how great those sins may have seemed during that lifetime, they would not even register as a blip on the meter of billions of human lives on the eternal plain of existence.

You and the OP are missing the point. We are slaves to sin. Meaning we can not help but to sin. Christ said a slave can not have two masters. "He will love the one and hate the other." If we do not rebuke and turn from our master of sin, then for all of eternity we will resent and hate God, and all of those who follow and love God. So again, 'we' are not ALL His Children. if we are not all his Children then why would God be looking out for the intrest of those who hate Him and those who are in His care? If he were to do this it would be to the determent to all of those who gave given themselves to Him. In other words God would be looking out for the intrest ofsomeone elses children over His Own.

How is this a 'righteous' act? to foresake your kids eternal future for the benfit of a stranger's children?

(October 21, 2013 at 11:13 am)Drich Wrote:

(October 21, 2013 at 11:00 am)Rationalman Wrote: How about you first demonstrate that sin exists.

The existance of sin is a given in the OP, as is God, Heaven and Hell. therefore the existance of sin need not be discussed as per the orginal post.

That said:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin

Or will you argue the defination found in this reference magterial with 'I still dont believe in it provide me with something else.'

All this proves is that the word 'sin' exists

(October 21, 2013 at 1:02 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

(October 21, 2013 at 11:13 am)Drich Wrote: The existance of sin is a given in the OP, as is God, Heaven and Hell. therefore the existance of sin need not be discussed as per the orginal post.

That said:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin

Or will you argue the defination found in this reference magterial with 'I still dont believe in it provide me with something else.'

All this proves is that the word 'sin' exists

so your going with option 'b'?

you are really argue the legitmacy of the defination found in this reference material with 'I still dont believe in it provide me with something else?'

If the defination of sin exists, then by all rights it is a quantifiable concept whether you like it or not. If one can limit, narrow and/or expound on the prameters of sin then sin becomes a tangable concept. As a tangable concept sin enters into existance. therefore sin exists whether you believe in it or not, like it or not, yield to it's parmeters or not.

Just like the color orange, whether you acknoweledge it or not has little effect on an objects ablity to reflect the light waves to make it appear orange. Other people can see the color orange no matter what you tell yourself and as such the color orange exists. That is why in our lexicon we gave it a defination.

The word 'sin' exists and the concept of sin exists. That does not make sin exist. It does not make it real.

(October 21, 2013 at 2:59 pm)Rationalman Wrote: The word 'sin' exists and the concept of sin exists. That does not make sin exist. It does not make it real.

Read the defination.
1.a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : fault
2a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

All of these things can be demonstrated, identified, proved or disproved regaurdless of your acknoweledgement. again much like the color orange, the identification of the color orange or the indentification of sin need not have your approval/acknoweledgement to exist.