(October 30, 2013 at 5:54 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 29, 2013 at 2:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: Of coarse, how else do you have a relationship with someone, you know of a different way.

GC

Ok, since you and god are on such a one to one basis....

Where is Madeline Mcann?

ROFLMAO! Post of the week! Kudos.

Why did they need a modern computer to prove God exists?

I already knew this a long time ago. I was pretty good with Populous on my Sega Genesis.....

(October 29, 2013 at 3:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: Faith and assumption are two very different things. Scientist make assumptions all the time and pursue them to the end, no evidence, no proof they follow what they think is correct. You've given no proof of why faith can not lead to knowledge, you just assume I can't.

Faith IS an assumption by definition. Faith means to presume something is true regardless of the evidence (or lack thereof). Scientists do make assumptions, but the assumptions themselves are just a methodology, not claims of a known truth, unlike your faith, which you already implicitly admitted.

Quote:That's not what I said and you know it, twisting words is nothing more than deception. There are 100's of millions alive today that have come to know God because He has revealed Himself. God will reveal at judgement how those who decided to reject Christ had the opportunity and rejected Him. God's action is very apparent when one wants to see it, putting blinders on will be no defense at the judgment.

That is what you JUST SAID GC. You just said that I can (and do) den God's existence until Judgement Day. I didn't say that (assuming God exists) God cannot do so, but that seeing as BILLIONS have not had a revelation by this supposedly existing being, His inaction is by your own (accidental) admission causing people to go to Hell. To say I'm 'putting on blinders' because of an incoherent concept like that is childishly silly. Par for the course for you.

Quote:No, you have the choice to choose Christ or reject Him, this is the one area God will never interfere in your choice. The rest of your life may not be so, all depends on God's ultimate will. Your life is not predetermined and if you believe that you live a defeated life, now that would truly be tragic. For someone who claims to be a person of reason you have a distinct habit of laying it aside when it comes to God.

This is where being able to reason effectively comes in handy GC. If my only guaranteed 'free' choice is to choose Christ and the rest of my life I cannot know whether or not I ever had a 'free' choice, then it necessarily follows that it was never in my power to actually choose Christ (or not) since the molding of my personality is directly the result of my life leading up to that 'free' choice, the life I can never know that I had ANY control of.

So you see GC, when you learn to reason decently well, don't contradict yourself and present your case well, you'll stop embarrassing yourself with your kindergarten theology.

(October 30, 2013 at 5:54 am)Zen Badger Wrote: Ok, since you and god are on such a one to one basis....

Where is Madeline Mcann?

The parents should know.

(October 30, 2013 at 1:18 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote:

(October 29, 2013 at 3:47 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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Faith and assumption are two very different things. Scientist make assumptions all the time and pursue them to the end, no evidence, no proof they follow what they think is correct. You've given no proof of why faith can not lead to knowledge, you just assume I can't.

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Faith IS an assumption by definition. Faith means to presume something is true regardless of the evidence (or lack thereof). Scientists do make assumptions, but the assumptions themselves are just a methodology, not claims of a known truth, unlike your faith, which you already implicitly admitted.

Just like scientists, Christians begin with faith, then through faith come to belief and then through belief come to knowledge. A process of learning and discovery not really different than what scientist do. Those Christians that stop short in their relationship with God, like at the point of belief would naturally have trouble claiming knowledge, I personally did not stop at belief, I enjoy knowledge and look to obtain it. If a scientist stops at belief he/she does not have the knowledge either.

GC Wrote:

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That's not what I said and you know it, twisting words is nothing more than deception. There are 100's of millions alive today that have come to know God because He has revealed Himself. God will reveal at judgement how those who decided to reject Christ had the opportunity and rejected Him. God's action is very apparent when one wants to see it, putting blinders on will be no defense at the judgment.

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MFM Wrote:That is what you JUST SAID GC. You just said that I can (and do) den God's existence until Judgement Day. I didn't say that (assuming God exists) God cannot do so, but that seeing as BILLIONS have not had a revelation by this supposedly existing being, His inaction is by your own (accidental) admission causing people to go to Hell. To say I'm 'putting on blinders' because of an incoherent concept like that is childishly silly. Par for the course for you.

Can you prove that all these people have not had God reveal Himself to them, please don't say because He doesn't exist we are assuming in this conversation He does. Now I know there are millions who have not heard about Christ and God has made provision for this, but we're discussing God's revelation He is. Yes I say you have put blinders own because you do not want to believe God exists, you're afraid that would ruin your life.

GC Wrote:

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No, you have the choice to choose Christ or reject Him, this is the one area God will never interfere in your choice. The rest of your life may not be so, all depends on God's ultimate will. Your life is not predetermined and if you believe that you live a defeated life, now that would truly be tragic. For someone who claims to be a person of reason you have a distinct habit of laying it aside when it comes to God.

---

MFM Wrote:This is where being able to reason effectively comes in handy GC. If my only guaranteed 'free' choice is to choose Christ and the rest of my life I cannot know whether or not I ever had a 'free' choice, then it necessarily follows that it was never in my power to actually choose Christ (or not) since the molding of my personality is directly the result of my life leading up to that 'free' choice, the life I can never know that I had ANY control of.

So you see GC, when you learn to reason decently well, don't contradict yourself and present your case well, you'll stop embarrassing yourself with your kindergarten theology.

I've not contradicted myself, it's just the way you want to read it so you can justify you're disbelief, remember what I said about those blinders you put on. You o have a choice as to where you would rather spend eternity and, if you can't see this you are either blind or just don't care. Also if you think I care whether or not you think I'm embarrassing myself you couldn't be more wrong, what God sees is what I care about.

GC

(October 30, 2013 at 5:15 pm)Godschild Wrote: Just like scientists, Christians begin with faith, then through faith come to belief and then through belief come to knowledge. A process of learning and discovery not really different than what scientist do. Those Christians that stop short in their relationship with God, like at the point of belief would naturally have trouble claiming knowledge, I personally did not stop at belief, I enjoy knowledge and look to obtain it. If a scientist stops at belief he/she does not have the knowledge either.

What assumptions do scientists make on faith?

(October 30, 2013 at 5:15 pm)Godschild Wrote: Just like scientists, Christians begin with faith, then through faith come to belief and then through belief come to knowledge. A process of learning and discovery not really different than what scientist do. Those Christians that stop short in their relationship with God, like at the point of belief would naturally have trouble claiming knowledge, I personally did not stop at belief, I enjoy knowledge and look to obtain it. If a scientist stops at belief he/she does not have the knowledge either.

All this portion is hand-waiving. You ignored what I said and just repeated yourself. What a shocker. If you assume God exists from the outset, you cannot gain knowledge that God exists from that faith alone. God himself would have to demonstrate that in some fashion.

Quote:Can you prove that all these people have not had God reveal Himself to them, please don't say because He doesn't exist we are assuming in this conversation He does. Now I know there are millions who have not heard about Christ and God has made provision for this, but we're discussing God's revelation He is. Yes I say you have put blinders own because you do not want to believe God exists, you're afraid that would ruin your life.

Now you are either misrepresenting what I said or completely misunderstanding what I said, in addition to making assertions you can neither justify nor demonstrate. Assuming God exists, I never said he cannot or has not revealed himself to people. I've said this 3 times now. What I said is that, by your own accidental admission, there are BILLIONS of others who God has not revealed himself to. To say that God has trevealed himself to people, yet failed to convert them or at least make them realize he has done so, nullifies his omnipotence and makes him incompetent.

Further, you cannot even evidence his existence in the first place.

And how do you know I don't want God to exist? As I already demonstrated back on Page 2, I'm pefectly willing to admit God exists if there is powerful, undeniable evidence supporting that as true. There is nothing about God existing that would 'ruin my life'. Since you made the assertion that it would (without providing any evidence as usual), demonstrate how God existing would ruin my life?

Quote:I've not contradicted myself, it's just the way you want to read it so you can justify you're disbelief, remember what I said about those blinders you put on. You do have a choice as to where you would rather spend eternity and, if you can't see this you are either blind or just don't care. Also if you think I care whether or not you think I'm embarrassing myself you couldn't be more wrong, what God sees is what I care about.

GC

GC, I just demonstrated my point and you ignored it and just reiterated what you already were called out on.

You just said that the ONLY guaranteed 'free' choice we have is "where we spend eternity", yes?

Do you agree that your experiences in life and ability to reason conscript (mold) how you will respond to things due to them being your background information on how to address questions?

If you answer "Yes" to both questions, you contradicted yourself. And if you answer "No" to the second question, you entangle yourself in a contradiction of no escape. Hence you are embarrassing yourself by demonstrating your inability to reason well or honestly.

(October 30, 2013 at 5:43 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote:

(October 30, 2013 at 5:15 pm)Godschild Wrote: Just like scientists, Christians begin with faith, then through faith come to belief and then through belief come to knowledge. A process of learning and discovery not really different than what scientist do. Those Christians that stop short in their relationship with God, like at the point of belief would naturally have trouble claiming knowledge, I personally did not stop at belief, I enjoy knowledge and look to obtain it. If a scientist stops at belief he/she does not have the knowledge either.

All this portion is hand-waiving. You ignored what I said and just repeated yourself. What a shocker. If you assume God exists from the outset, you cannot gain knowledge that God exists from that faith alone. God himself would have to demonstrate that in some fashion.

He does, I've already explained that.

GC Wrote:Can you prove that all these people have not had God reveal Himself to them, please don't say because He doesn't exist we are assuming in this conversation He does. Now I know there are millions who have not heard about Christ and God has made provision for this, but we're discussing God's revelation He is. Yes I say you have put blinders own because you do not want to believe God exists, you're afraid that would ruin your life.

MFM Wrote:Now you are either misrepresenting what I said or completely misunderstanding what I said, in addition to making assertions you can neither justify nor demonstrate. Assuming God exists, I never said he cannot or has not revealed himself to people. I've said this 3 times now. What I said is that, by your own accidental admission, there are BILLIONS of others who God has not revealed himself to. To say that God has trevealed himself to people, yet failed to convert them or at least make them realize he has done so, nullifies his omnipotence and makes him incompetent.

God has revealed Himself to all in some way, I'm not privy to how He does this, nor do I need to be. I've never said He hasn't as you are suggesting everyone will have God revealed to them at some point in their lives. God has not fail, those who reject Him are exercising their choice within their free will, God will force no one to choose Him.

MFM Wrote:Further, you cannot even evidence his existence in the first place.

I do not have to, God does that for everyone, it's not His responsibility to force one into a decision.

MFM Wrote:And how do you know I don't want God to exist? As I already demonstrated back on Page 2, I'm pefectly willing to admit God exists if there is powerful, undeniable evidence supporting that as true. There is nothing about God existing that would 'ruin my life'. Since you made the assertion that it would (without providing any evidence as usual), demonstrate how God existing would ruin my life?

You haven't sought Him out have you? Of coarse you would say He exist when you have absolute proof, only an idiot wouldn't. That's why I said at the judgement everyone will bend on knee and bow their head and call God the LORD of all.
You haven't sought out God for a reason, could it be that if you were to find Him you would have to give up the life you're so happy with for one you seem to deny as worth to live.

GC Wrote:I've not contradicted myself, it's just the way you want to read it so you can justify you're disbelief, remember what I said about those blinders you put on. You do have a choice as to where you would rather spend eternity and, if you can't see this you are either blind or just don't care. Also if you think I care whether or not you think I'm embarrassing myself you couldn't be more wrong, what God sees is what I care about.

GC

MFM Wrote:GC, I just demonstrated my point and you ignored it and just reiterated what you already were called out on.

You just said that the ONLY guaranteed 'free' choice we have is "where we spend eternity", yes?

Yes, that's what I said and have presented nothing to indicate differently.

MFM Wrote:Do you agree that your experiences in life and ability to reason conscript (mold) how you will respond to things due to them being your background information on how to address questions?

No, I believe everyone can make decisions due to the facts at hand, spiritually or physically. I've changed greatly over my life and foresee changing in the future.

MFM Wrote:If you answer "Yes" to both questions, you contradicted yourself. And if you answer "No" to the second question, you entangle yourself in a contradiction of no escape. Hence you are embarrassing yourself by demonstrating your inability to reason well or honestly.

I try and deal with life as honestly as possible.

GC

Godschild Wrote:He does, I've already explained that.

You've claimed it. You've provided no reason to believe that it is true. Revelation is, by definition, first person. As such, no one is under any obligation to believe your first person revelation over that of anyone else. You may be the most honest person anyone has ever met, but we still need real evidence that God talks to you. Otherwise, it is the rubber room for you.

(October 30, 2013 at 8:24 pm)Godschild Wrote: He does, I've already explained that.

Which means that you're contradicting yourself, as I said. Faith in God's existence doesn't give you knowledge of God's existence: only God can do that if he exists. I agree.

Quote:God has revealed Himself to all in some way, I'm not privy to how He does this, nor do I need to be. I've never said He hasn't as you are suggesting everyone will have God revealed to them at some point in their lives. God has not fail, those who reject Him are exercising their choice within their free will, God will force no one to choose Him.

So in other words, you say God has revealed himself to EVERYONE in some way that you yourself admit you don't know how, yet you still assert it as true, knowingly without evidence? THAT is what dishonesty is. And to say that God has revealed himself to everyone in some way, and yet there are people who don't realize that (ex: me) is just a demonstration of what I said before: If God exists he's either impotent, incompetent or both.

Quote:I do not have to, God does that for everyone, it's not His responsibility to force one into a decision.

So something you cannot evidence the existence of and do not know the operations of does things that you don't know of, yet you know it exists and does certain things?

Some deity you've got there.

Quote:You haven't sought Him out have you? Of coarse you would say He exist when you have absolute proof, only an idiot wouldn't. That's why I said at the judgement everyone will bend on knee and bow their head and call God the LORD of all.

As a former fundamentalist, "born-again" Christian, to say I haven't 'sought out God' is quite hilarious and blatantly false. And now that you admit that I would in fact accept that God exists if there were powerful evidence for it, I hereby request that you retract your claim that I'm simply denying he exists because it would ruin my life.

Further, your second point that God will demonstrate his existence and supremacy on Judgement Day is a demonstration that God could reveal himself everyone such that they would accept he exists, yet chooses not to. Hence, he allows them to go to Hell by not doing so.

Quote:You haven't sought out God for a reason, could it be that if you were to find Him you would have to give up the life you're so happy with for one you seem to deny as worth to live.

There is nothing in life so precious to me that evidence that I would choose it and accept infinite torture over.

Actually, I think the threat itself would be one of the only things that would make me hesitate. "Accept me as lord and savior or, in my infinite benevolence and justice, I will torture you for eternity!"

Again, some god you've (supposedly) got.

Quote:Yes, that's what I said and have presented nothing to indicate differently.

Good, I'm clarifying to demonstrate the incoherence of your position.

MFM Wrote:No, I believe everyone can make decisions due to the facts at hand, spiritually or physically. I've changed greatly over my life and foresee changing in the future.

Er, you just agreed with me. To say that people can choose based on the "facts at hand" just means they analyze a given set of facts (reason) based on the way they've built up said ability to reason (background information).

Quote:I try and deal with life as honestly as possible.

GC

Until you've been shown not to have been entirely honest, or at least a history of misunderstanding posts.