(October 28, 2013 at 8:11 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

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(October 28, 2013 at 7:55 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: OK, I'll take this bait.

If God said that I had to kill someone and I was 100% sure that it was God telling me to do it . . .

God is in the unique position to KNOW 100% what needs to be done. For instance, if you were in the position to where you absolutely, 100% knew that your neighbor was going to blow up the world tomorrow unless you burned his house down with him inside (assuming that was the only way to stop him), would you? It would be irresponsible not to, right?

When someone has 100% knowledge of what needs to be done, you listen. It does not mean that you have to be happy about it. Jonah was not happy about what God asked him to do, and probably the better example would be Abrahams reluctance to kill his own son. Isaac was not really thrilled about it either.

OK, bring it on . . .

The problem is that people who are delusional, cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy. People with schizophrenia for example. They may claim to know 100% that god told them to kill their kid, but the fact is, they don't know. They think they know, but they would think that, they have schizophrenia. They can't tell the difference between fact and fiction. Now ask yourself, what the consequences would be if you had a hallucination. You saw god and he told you to burn down a hospital. God didn't actually tell you to do it because it was a hallucination, but because you thought god told you, you did it. God is indistinguishable from psychological disorders. And thats the problem I have with all this. You may claim to know when god talks to you, but in actual fact, no christian anywhere actually knows. And they can give no other reason as to how they know god talks to them, they just know. And that's not good enough

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Fair enough . . .

(October 28, 2013 at 8:20 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: Fair enough . . .

Well....this is a first. I'm thoroughly confused.

(October 28, 2013 at 7:55 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: OK, I'll take this bait.

If God said that I had to kill someone and I was 100% sure that it was God telling me to do it . . .

God is in the unique position to KNOW 100% what needs to be done. For instance, if you were in the position to where you absolutely, 100% knew that your neighbor was going to blow up the world tomorrow unless you burned his house down with him inside (assuming that was the only way to stop him), would you? It would be irresponsible not to, right?

When someone has 100% knowledge of what needs to be done, you listen. It does not mean that you have to be happy about it. Jonah was not happy about what God asked him to do, and probably the better example would be Abrahams reluctance to kill his own son. Isaac was not really thrilled about it either.

OK, bring it on . . .

But is that a moral action if you are doing it because you are told to do it? God isn't telling you why, God is just saying to do it. Can that even possibly be a moral action? You bring up Abraham and Isaac, that clearly demonstrates the answer to the prior question. It isn't a moral action to simply blindly follow the commands of an authority figure. (Hitler gave some pretty messed up orders too).

If I knew someone was going to kill someone else, I would not consider it a moral action to take their life in order to prevent it. There are other means of prevention.

I find the lack of theists responses saddening, so I'd like to take a shot at this if you don't mind.

(October 21, 2013 at 9:27 am)TheBeardedDude Wrote: In claiming something to be a miracle, is it necessary to know of all possible natural explanations for said event? If so, how can you ever claim it to be a miracle since you cannot possibly know of all possibilities? If not, how can you claim it to be a miracle? (miracle = suspension of the natural order)

Had you got to me while I was still a theist I actually wouldn't have known how to answer this question and I would have been up front about it. I accepted that I didn't have all the answers and saw no shame in admitting it. Something I notice a lot of theists don't like admitting, especially in the company of atheists.

(October 21, 2013 at 9:27 am)TheBeardedDude Wrote: If god commanded you to kill someone (for all intents and purposes let's assume we both agree that it is in fact god itself/himself/herself who did indeed tell you to do so), is following god's orders and killing them a moral action? Why or why not?

Now this on the other hand would have been easier for me to approach as I would have been able to easily imagine myself in such a hypothetical scenario. Reluctantly asking why God wanted me to kill the individual and then begging that person to be spared if he persisted. Ultimately I would have refused and feared being turned into ash for disobeying God with the hope that the test was a mix of bewaring falsehoods and showing compassion for my fellow man. Knowing God's tales in the OT it wouldn't surprise if me such a scenario had ended with you failing if you opt to go through with the murder.

As for the moral question I either would've said no with the justification that God's endgame wouldn't have been to kill the person in the first place, or yes because a creator would dictate what is right and wrong and who should die.

I'm curious if any of the other theists you mentioned in the OP that answered this question off-site have given similar responses.

(November 5, 2013 at 9:34 am)ToriJ Wrote: I find the lack of theists responses saddening, so I'd like to take a shot at this if you don't mind.

(October 21, 2013 at 9:27 am)TheBeardedDude Wrote: In claiming something to be a miracle, is it necessary to know of all possible natural explanations for said event? If so, how can you ever claim it to be a miracle since you cannot possibly know of all possibilities? If not, how can you claim it to be a miracle? (miracle = suspension of the natural order)

Had you got to me while I was still a theist I actually wouldn't have known how to answer this question and I would have been up front about it. I accepted that I didn't have all the answers and saw no shame in admitting it. Something I notice a lot of theists don't like admitting, especially in the company of atheists.

(October 21, 2013 at 9:27 am)TheBeardedDude Wrote: If god commanded you to kill someone (for all intents and purposes let's assume we both agree that it is in fact god itself/himself/herself who did indeed tell you to do so), is following god's orders and killing them a moral action? Why or why not?

Now this on the other hand would have been easier for me to approach as I would have been able to easily imagine myself in such a hypothetical scenario. Reluctantly asking why God wanted me to kill the individual and then begging that person to be spared if he persisted. Ultimately I would have refused and feared being turned into ash for disobeying God with the hope that the test was a mix of bewaring falsehoods and showing compassion for my fellow man. Knowing God's tales in the OT it wouldn't surprise if me such a scenario had ended with you failing if you opt to go through with the murder.

As for the moral question I either would've said no with the justification that God's endgame wouldn't have been to kill the person in the first place, or yes because a creator would dictate what is right and wrong and who should die.

I'm curious if any of the other theists you mentioned in the OP that answered this question off-site have given similar responses.

I haven't actually had anyone give a response on here about if they would or would not kill someone if god told them to.

The point in my last post is that an action can't be a moral (or immoral) one if you do it strictly because you are commanded to do so by whoever is in charge. It becomes an amoral action at best to carry it out. It literally can't be a moral action, even if the supreme dictator is the one supposedly making the distinction between moral and immoral. That is because you are not doing it for the morality of it, you are doing it because you are commanded to do so.

I meant the people on the Christian forums you talked about in your OP.

And I see your point. It's probably why you're not getting many responses.

(November 5, 2013 at 10:18 am)ToriJ Wrote: I meant the people on the Christian forums you talked about in your OP.

And I see your point. It's probably why you're not getting many responses.

Ah, I'll look and see of I can find them or a link to those threads.

But it was essentially the same. Equivocations and ignoring it. I did have one person say they would gladly kill someone just because they thought God had told them to. That scares the shit out of me.

(October 29, 2013 at 6:40 pm)TheBeardedDude Wrote: But is that a moral action if you are doing it because you are told to do it? God isn't telling you why, God is just saying to do it. Can that even possibly be a moral action? You bring up Abraham and Isaac, that clearly demonstrates the answer to the prior question. It isn't a moral action to simply blindly follow the commands of an authority figure. (Hitler gave some pretty messed up orders too).

If I knew someone was going to kill someone else, I would not consider it a moral action to take their life in order to prevent it. There are other means of prevention.

Sorry, I left this thread alone for a while because the first response I got was that I was delusional, and if you honestly think I am delusional then we can't have much of a conversation about anything.

So, I'll keep this up . . .

Following the command of a man/or woman blindly strictly because they are in charge does not necessarily make your action moral, but it doesn't make it immoral either. For instance, if Mother Teresa told me to kill someone that would immoral. If Hitler told me to go feed a starving man, that would be moral.

The problem that you assert is that if God told you to do something that is typically seen as immoral, would you do it? The trick here is because if you do it you are making an immoral choice, and thus sinning, But if you do NOT do it then you are disobeying God, which would also be sinning.

But I ask you: Is Hitler God? Is Mother Teresa God?

No!

God is the creator of all things. If he had chosen to create a universe where killing was moral, it would be so. To ask this question, the one you pose, is to put the creator of man on the same level as man. It is like comparing yourself to a stick figure that you drew. The stick figure will never be anything like the living and breathing and three dimensional you. It is two different plains of existence.

God told Abraham to kill his son.
God told Jonah to preach to hopeless sinners.
God told Joseph to take care of a pregnant woman.
God told Moses to challenge the Pharaoh
God told Noah to build an ark.
God told Jesus He had to die.

These were all crazy things at the time, but when God speaks, you listen.

(November 7, 2013 at 7:15 am)GodsRevolt Wrote: Following the command of a man/or woman blindly strictly because they are in charge does not necessarily make your action moral, but it doesn't make it immoral either.

Amoral at best, then.

(November 7, 2013 at 7:15 am)GodsRevolt Wrote: For instance, if Mother Teresa told me to kill someone that would immoral. If Hitler told me to go feed a starving man, that would be moral.

Why and why, respectively?

How do you determine the morality of those instructions? What mechanism are you using? This is a vital question to everything you are contending, because unless you are suggesting that old canard "might makes right", which you do appear to be, you have to make the determination of whether the instructions you are given, or feel you are given, conflict with your own innate moral sense.

For instance, Mother Teresa (that old fraud of Christopher Hitchens) tells you to kill a child. You refuse, because to you that would be deeply immoral. That child later acquires power and influence and is responsible for the death and suffering of millions. Your refusal to kill him when you were given the opportunity becomes the immoral act.

Similarly, Adolf Hitler orders you to feed a starving man. You do so eagerly, as this is a moral act and makes you feel good to help. It transpires that the man was carrying information of Hitler's genocidal ambitions to the powers able to prevent them; the meat you fed him was laced with strychnine. Do you still consider your complicity in the act a moral one?

(November 7, 2013 at 7:15 am)GodsRevolt Wrote: God is the creator of all things. If he had chosen to create a universe where killing was moral, it would be so. To ask this question, the one you pose, is to put the creator of man on the same level as man. It is like comparing yourself to a stick figure that you drew. The stick figure will never be anything like the living and breathing and three dimensional you. It is two different plains of existence.

Would you agree that there are no absolute morals, then? That is to say, no action is intrinsically moral or immoral, it depends on whether the being who carried out or ordered the action can back his position with strength. God is so far above man that no one can thwart his will, therefore he can judge an act as being moral or immoral based on his ability to enforce his will and the inability of anyone else to stop him. In the same manner, there is no right and wrong, or good and bad. There is what god wills.