I'm pro life with regards to myself. And I'll always fight for life when it comes to others. That said I will admit that euthanasia should be an option for the terminally ill and suffering. I know what its like to suffer in more pain than narcotics can treat without shutting down your lungs. I know what its like not having reprieve from minute to minute suffering and physical agony for years on end. I understand that sometimes life isn't worth living in those cases. That said I lost my grandparents to a double suicide. Well, homicide/suicide but they both wanted it. That decision of theirs tore their family into pieces. Pieces that have never quite healed. I blame part of the worst days if my childhood on their decision and yes I believe they were being selfish as fuck. If you don't want to live because of physical agony I get it. Otherwise you merely rob the world around you of you, and you rob yourself of so many things, it can only be described (poorly) as a tragedy.

(November 13, 2013 at 11:19 am)Walking Void Wrote: I am neither pro-life or pro-death. I would rather be pro-choice. If someone wants to live, it is our duty to help them accomplish that no matter what. If someone wants to die, it is our duty to not keep them from dying. It is their life, after all.

Agree. Imposing our ideas of 'obligation to society' and 'have to fight to live' etc..., other subjective opinions that they may or don't feel seems really wrong. It strikes me as selfish.

Particularly when suicide makes all the problems go away, as terrible as it is to say. For many, life is not that great. I think it's fair to let them know that there's the possibility for things to turn around. But if they say "Nah, I'll just leave now." that's their choice, and imposing my opinions based on my values seems like I'm trying to be their God.

(November 13, 2013 at 9:30 am)Zazzy Wrote: I can't think of a case where an otherwise healthy person should be allowed to just kill themselves

"allowed to kill themselves."

The world is so fucked and so wonderful.

People decide however they will and it has nothing to do with what you allow.

you can't impose anything. If someone wants to go they'll go. But most don't want to go they just don't see hope for a better life. Thing is: there's always hope for a better life, and typically the only thing holding them from it is themselves.
Any person in their right mind can find life worth living for one reason or another. Once you hit the point of no return you aren't fit to decide for yourself what you need, in my opinion. Its not so much about telling others how to live their lives like theists do, its about helping people hold on to their precious lives even when they see no value in it-- tomorrow, they might see the value of living and we all have weak moments. I'd consider someone who didn't fight for my life when I had not the will to fight for my own: amoral.

(November 13, 2013 at 11:19 am)Walking Void Wrote: I am neither pro-life or pro-death. I would rather be pro-choice. If someone wants to live, it is our duty to help them accomplish that no matter what. If someone wants to die, it is our duty to not keep them from dying. It is their life, after all.

This 100%.

It's my life, after all. If I wanted to commit suicide, then that's my choice and nobody can tell me I'm wrong.

The grey area with euthanasia comes with the notions of where one can actively make the decision, or if the decision is made for you. It's both this and religious reasons why suicide, and especially euthanasia, are still viewed negatively in most enlightened countries. The latter can be disregarded as irrelevant, but the former is definitely a good cause for concern.

I have no doubt that If I were ever diagnosed with dementia or a disease where I began to lose the ability to make decisions (or even lose my sense of 'self'), then I would chose death. Not immediately perhaps, and indeed another grey area arises when deciding where the line is to be drawn, but I would not wish to be a burden on the people around me, and neither would I want people to see me as a shell of who I was, which is exactly what diseases such as dementia and Alzheimer's does.

After all, what's the point in living if you're living as a shell? Without any concept of the world or people around you? Many may disagree, but it's my life and my decision, and I'll live (or not) with the consequences. MY fiancé knows where I stand on this, and she's accepted it.

missluckie26 Wrote:I'd consider someone who didn't fight for my life when I had not the will to fight for my own: amoral.

When You say 'no' "will to fight", are You referring to people who do not choose life, or are You talking about people who are too confused to make that decision?

EDIT: Didn't someone on here post a blog a while back from someone who committed suicide where they explained their reasons for doing so? Opened my eyes and changed my perceptions of it for sure. Worth a read if we can find it.

(November 13, 2013 at 12:07 pm)Walking Void Wrote:

missluckie26 Wrote:I'd consider someone who didn't fight for my life when I had not the will to fight for my own: amoral.

When You say 'no' "will to fight", are You referring to people who do not choose life, or are You talking about people who are too confused to make that decision?

both

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Fidel, in my experiences in Nursing homes its the ones with dimentia who were the happiest. Unless you're making a case for not having to grow old: then I consider being alive in and of itself worth it, dimentia or not.

(November 13, 2013 at 12:11 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Fidel, in my experiences in Nursing homes its the ones with dimentia who were the happiest. Unless you're making a case for not having to grow old: then I consider being alive in and of itself worth it, dimentia or not.

Personal experience, I guess.

The happiness factor, for me, has to be weighed against the sense of 'self'. Your sense of self is still there when you have dementia, but the degradation of your brain fundamentally alters you and your personality, hence why someone becomes unable to recognise people and objects, and ultimately wastes away into nothingness as their brain functions diminish.

My biggest worry is the cost and burden I would be to others. Altruism would go hand in hand with my selfishness. Even though the suffering and sadness of those who love me would be great in the short term, at least they would see me die as me, and not a stranger who didn't know my arse from my elbow.

The post I made above this one that referred to a blog by someone who committed suicide was by someone who didn't want to grow old. Initially I was skeptical, but reading through his reasons made me fundamentally alter my perception of what 'life' is per se. I wish I could remember the damn page, though. It was sad, but also very well thought out and reasoned.

(November 13, 2013 at 11:52 am)Marvin Wrote:

(November 13, 2013 at 9:30 am)Zazzy Wrote: I can't think of a case where an otherwise healthy person should be allowed to just kill themselves

"allowed to kill themselves."

The world is so fucked and so wonderful.

People decide however they will and it has nothing to do with what you allow.

I meant, allow without stepping in. When people I know become suicidal, I step in and try to help them. Always. Of course if they really want to I can't stop it. But often I can stop it, and I've never had an experience where I intervened and the person was angry later. They have always been glad of my intervention.