In one of your post (n°17 of this topic) you wrote the next sentence about Muhammad :
"He was not illiterate. That's a lie believed by Sunnis.
<snip>"

You aren't a sunni therefore I have some questions :

1.Are you a "shi'a muslim" or a "Qu'ranist" ? if you're not a "sh'ia" or a "Qurayoon" can you explain why ? if you're a "shi'a" or an "only quran" can you say the reason(s) ?

2.The Qu'ran tell us that a first man did existed (2:30-2:34). The biologists know that this is false because they have evidences that "evolution theory" is true. If what say the Qu'ran is true. I ask you to refute this theory with the science (not with a pseudo-science similar to "Zakir Naik , Harun Yahya etc..."). Excuse me to cite sunni pseudo-scientists I know that you're not a sunni , but I don't know any shi'a pseudo-scientist or a Quranist pseudo-scientist.

3.If "Allah" is "omnipotent and omniscient" can you explain the presence of the next ayaat in the Koran ? (2:106 and 16:101).

The Night Journey is total Buraq-shit! (No, the Quran doesn't say horse, just some white animal with a size between a donkey and mule.) To believe that Mo flew round trip between Mecca and Jerusalem with a layover in heaven is silly enough. To believe he entered a temple that hadn't existed for 500 years and prayed in a mosque that wouldn't exist for another 50 years defies logic. So much for the logic part of your argument.

Ok I know a thing or two about the practice of your religion, I can douche it out with you later. But based purely on what you've already said, here is where you've been illogical:

1. Humans are placed on earth to worship god. But somehow your omniscient and omnipotent allah could not manage to spread islam to all humans. Why is that? In fact, yours is a rather young religion, plenty of people lived before your religion even STARTED, so what were their purposes? Why does an omnipotent being who aims to have a bunch of worshippers takes so fucking long to get to the point and when he finally got to it, the majority of the world aren't even muslims! That's illogical.

2. Related point: you said god needs nothing. But apparently he needs worshippers, why else are humans here? Or at least he needs entertainment.

3. Find me verses in the qur'an that says believers are equal to nonbelievers or pagans, and I want verses that says so EXPLICITLY, not just "don't kill" so that includes everyone. (while you're at that, keep in mind that I have a video with muslims acting out a musical that contains the verse that Islam sex is better than jewish sex, I'll post it if you manage to find this verse, to show where my "misconceptions" came from).

4. If it doesn't matter what god we worship we go to heaven, then why bother writing a book that tells people how to live? When that's not the point at all, following any book will get you to heaven. Illogical again.

I have loads more. But there's no point going there if you can't even field this 4.

(November 13, 2013 at 12:12 am)Sleepy Wrote: The difference between you and me is not that I have seen God with my own eyes, but that I have faith in God.

I thought Islam was logical. Surely you don't have to have faith in something that is logical, do you?

(November 13, 2013 at 11:48 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(November 13, 2013 at 12:12 am)Sleepy Wrote: The difference between you and me is not that I have seen God with my own eyes, but that I have faith in God.

I thought Islam was logical. Surely you don't have to have faith in something that is logical, do you?

Spot on. This is why religion is always so suss: they proclaim to essentially believe in a more complete reality, but conveniently, one can't come to realise this supposed self-evident reality unless one has faith.

Why is it that properly basic beliefs like knowing I have two hands and that my room has four walls can't extend to naturally come to believe in God himself? No, instead we're told you just need to have faith. And such baseless reasoning is always the stuff of scams and cults, like indian-sounding "John" from "Microsoft" that calls my house every once in a while to tell me my computer is infected with viruses. Of course, he can't provide proof of his credentials, so I'm left with needing to put faith in "John" that he really is from "Microsoft". Religion is no different.

(November 12, 2013 at 10:59 pm)Sleepy Wrote: Right now we are in reality. As opposed to non reality which none of us know. We only know this world. We were thrown into this world without any choice( thrownness- Heidegger)

How are we here? Is there really a moral standard? Do we come from nothingness and go back to nothingness?

"Who, when disaster strikes them, say, "Indeed we belong to Allah , and indeed to Him we will return." Quran 2: 156

I'm not your average Muslim that spouts out verses. Islam is the religion of logic. And I know atheists always claim to love logic but many a times even when not talking about religion I see the logic falter and they really don't even have what it takes for 3000 level philosophy courses. Not many do. Not saying that means anything though if you do comprehend but simply trying to talk about logic.

It's my first time on these forums. What about Islam is illogical to any of the atheists on here?

I'm sure many of you were born in families that adhered to a form of christianity as we all know there are endless sects, many of you are hidden atheists, and many are christians unsure, and also the agnostics.

Christianity is illogical. God dying. Jesus not being all knowing and God is supposed to be All Knowing. God is One but yet he is three. God is the Greatest but yet he is physically limited by laws, he has to eat, sleep, drink.

I definitely understand why many become atheist if they don't know Islam and they've only known Christianity because it is in itself nonsensical.


Islam beliefs
God is One. God is the Greatest. The Most Merciful. Babies are not born with sin. He is the Most Compassionate. Good or bad that happens in this world you are still in His hands. Traumatic events are tests on the individual. Those who are patient are indeed amongst the righteous. You can be Christian, Jewish and even other religion and go to heaven. You're not condemned to hell if you're not Muslim. If you're not sincere in good deeds they don't matter unless you're sincere in your heart. If you're a good person you will most likely go to heaven...except those that are atheists. Denying the existence of God is non sensical.

Islam is the religion of science, knowledge, wisdom.

Read some history. The entire Renaissance was founded because of the Islamic Golden Age.

What questions does anyone have for me? If you have any misconceptions about Islam tell me.

Being too religious is dangerous. It's like a faith system
Here i show you.

High = Fanatic
Average = Well enough
Little = Good Enough

Knowledge is the key to everything, religion demands worship, why not let people come to one's own conclusion, and teach rather than preach

Hope that explains it.

Quote:why not let people come to one's own conclusion

Because you might come to a conclusion that the bishops, imams and rabbis don't like. They can't risk that.

Nah, try porn

It doesn't matter if most muslims deny evolution. Evolution is entirely compatible with Islam.

The people who said compare Europe with arab countries and Iran, Iran is better country than all of the european countries. The ones drowing in capitalism and marketing to own the minds and make everybody rabid consumers

Second, how did Europe get where it is today?

The Muslims were directly responsible for the Renaissance.

Maria Rosa Menocal, The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain
[It] is no exaggeration to say that what we presumptuously call 'Western' culture is owed in large measure to the Andalusian enlightenment....This book partly restores to us a world we have lost, a world for which our current monotheistic leaderships do not even feel nostalgia.--Christopher Hitchens, The Nation

Martin Wainwright, Our Debt to Islam
While the barbarians smashed and burned in western Europe, the Arabs and Persians used the libraries of Alexandria and Asia Minor, translated the scrolls and took them to Baghdad and far beyond. In distant Bukhara on the Silk Road to China, a teenager called Abu Ali Ibn Sina was engrossed in Aristotle's Metaphysics at the age of 17. The year was AD997 and the text - central to the subsequent development of philosophy - had long been lost and unknown in western Europe.

David Self, Christians and Muslims Share a Journey
We are indebted to the Arabic world not only for arithmetic but also for algebra and trigonometry. Logarithms were invented by a mathematician called Al-Khwarizmi in the 7th century. Test tubes, the compass and the first surgical tools were all pioneered by Muslim inventors. A thousand years ago, it is said, Baghdad had 60 hospitals.
This scientific flowering was accompanied by the establishment of the first universities - or madrassahs. In a madrassah, the sheik or professor taught, literally, from a chair. He was assisted by readers. When the west eventually replicated such places of learning, we borrowed such terms.


Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel
In the Middle Ages the flow of technology was overwhelmingly from Islam to Europe, rather than from Europe to Islam as it is today. Only around A.D. 1500 did the net direction of flow begin to reverse. -- p. 253
Fernand Braudel, A History of Civilizations
The major landmarks in this process of expolitation were: in the sixteenth century, the arrival of 'treasures' (gold and silver ingots) from America; the brutal opening-up of India after the battle of Plassey (23 June 1757), at which the British defeated the nawab of Bengal; the forced expolitation of the Chinese market after the First Opium War in 1839-42; and the partition of Africa at Berlin in 1885. -- p. 388

Susan Spano, Revealed: Muslim Traveler Who Rivaled Marco Polo
I had studied medieval Europe ethnocentrically but now can only conclude that during Battuta's time, it was a cultural, political and technological sideshow. In the 14th century, the main event was Dar al-Islam.

John Edwards, History Today
On the second day of January [1492] I saw Your Highnesses' royal banners placed by force of arms on the towers of the Alhambra . . . and in the same month . . . Your Highness, as Catholic Christians and princes devoted to the holy Christian faith and the furtherance of its cause, and enemies of the sect of Mohammed and of all idolatry and heresy, resolved to send me, Christopher Columbus, to the . . . regions of India. -- vol. 42

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The person who said " God needs worshippers"

Again false statement. God doesn't need anybody. He's giving His creation a chance to enter paradise if they stay on the true path. Do good, live with morals and virtues.

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The person who said that it's a paradox is God is All-Knowing is being illogical. If God is All-Knowing that means He cannot learn.

Learning is a quality of the student. By saying God is All-Knowing means that he does not learn as he knows everything. Having the ability to learn implies you are not All-Knowing. Use your brain.

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Imam Ja’far Sadiq, (A.S.), says: “Your teacher enjoys the right over you that you should honour him and pay him respect in different assemblies. You should be very attentive to his words. You should not raise your voice above his. If anybody asks him a question you should not give a reply thereto. You should not converse with others in his presence and you should allow the people to benefit from his knowledge. You should not speak ill of anyone before him. If anybody speaks ill of him in your presence you should defend him. You should conceal his shortcomings and bring his virtues to light. You should not associate with his enemies and should not dispute with his friends. If you act on these lines the angels of Allah will testify that you have paid attention to him and have acquired knowledge for the sake of Allah and not to attract the attention of the people. And the right of your pupils on you is that you should realise that in granting you knowledge and opening its path for you, Allah has appointed you to be their guardian. In case, therefore you teach them properly and do not frighten them and are not furious with them Allah will, through His kindness, increase your knowledge. But if you drive the people away from knowledge and as and when they approach you for it you frighten them and get annoyed with them it will be only appropriate that Almighty Allah may take away the light of knowledge from you and may degrade you in the eyes of the people”

Sleepy Wrote:The person who said that it's a paradox is God is All-Knowing is being illogical. If God is All-Knowing that means He cannot learn.

Learning is a quality of the student. By saying God is All-Knowing means that he does not learn as he knows everything. Having the ability to learn implies you are not All-Knowing. Use your brain.

You completely butchered my argument:

Omniscience + omnipotence - if God can't learn anything new, then there is something he *can't do*. Therefore, he can't be omnipotent.