(November 24, 2013 at 12:54 pm)Cinjin Wrote:

(November 24, 2013 at 12:44 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote: The problem is capitalism. Marx predicted exactly that this would happen. The solution is simple; laissez-faire free-market communism. A system where everyone is given the opportunity & access to everything they need to achieve. All private property is abolished & all have access to the necessary resources. All goods would be directly purchased by & from the worker, who would then manufacture more goods out of these resources & sell them directly. Thus, the middle-man, the owner of industry; the capitalist is eliminated. Instead all become workers. Incentive is also increased, as one would sell their products directly, so wage labor is done away with & people are payed based off of what they produce & sell. Government intervention would be eliminated & the economy completely deregulated. The industrious & creative would be aptly rewarded through the sales they make, while the lazy & unimaginative would be kept thoroughly poor. Inventors & other entrepreneurs would make millions, but everyone would, because of the communization of property, have the opportunity to make millions if they are industrious & creative enough.

If only it wasn't for the fact that communistic countries are always full of poor miserable starving people who hate their own way of life.
That's right ... if communism was such a utopian system, you wouldn't have to force people at gunpoint to accept it.

That is because they had state "communism", as opposed to free communism. They tried to force everybody to be equal.

I admire what they tried to do, but it didn't work. People aren't equal, so naturally the best system is one of inequality, where the lesser people are left to die off in laissez-faire style. I am not a Marxist (although I admire Marx & he is one of my biggest influences). Communism means only the abolition of wage labor & private property. The CCCP tried to abolish market economy. I support laissez-faire markets, but without private property (while maintaining personal property).

Even if one could successfully (and magically) remove the need to compete out of 80% of the entire human population you would still have 20% who would absolutely refuse to accept a mundane life of equality. Good or bad, people are driven to compete, to create, and to excel beyond their counter parts. This is why communism in any form can never work. We don't all want to drive the same car and live in the same house and be regulated for a lifetime. Besides, who gets the beachfront property if we're all "equals?"

Communism is not compatible with being human.

(November 24, 2013 at 4:30 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Even if one could successfully (and magically) remove the need to compete out of 80% of the entire human population you would still have 20% who would absolutely refuse to accept a mundane life of equality. Good or bad, people are driven to compete, to create, and to excel beyond their counter parts. This is why communism in any form can never work. We don't all want to drive the same car and live in the same house and be regulated for a lifetime. Besides, who gets the beachfront property if we're all "equals?"

Communism is not compatible with being human.

I take it you have listened to nothing I have said. I said people can't be equal. Communism doesn't mean equality, it means the abolition of private property; while maintaining personal property.

(November 24, 2013 at 4:40 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote: I take it you have listened to nothing I have said. I said people can't be equal. Communism doesn't mean equality, it means the abolition of private property; while maintaining personal property.

Excuse me? I listened.
I wasn't speaking to you. I was sharing an opinion about the nature of humans. You may discount it as you wish, but don't get butt hurt about it.

(November 24, 2013 at 4:30 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Even if one could successfully (and magically) remove the need to compete out of 80% of the entire human population you would still have 20% who would absolutely refuse to accept a mundane life of equality. Good or bad, people are driven to compete, to create, and to excel beyond their counter parts. This is why communism in any form can never work. We don't all want to drive the same car and live in the same house and be regulated for a lifetime. Besides, who gets the beachfront property if we're all "equals?"

Communism is not compatible with being human.

Material goods that you mentioned aren't a priority to people living under communism. Corporations spend billions of dollars to convince people to buy products. Humans are more than just consumers and workers.

Quote:Communism is not compatible with being human.

Neither is capitalism.

(November 24, 2013 at 5:57 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Communism is not compatible with being human.

Neither is capitalism.

Like you said, no "ism" is ever going to be perfect.

Not even a prism?

I don't get why so many people seem to think that it has to be either capitalism or communism, as if it's not a spectrum and there cannot exist an ideal balance between government-rendered services and private industry, between extreme communism and anarcho-capitalism.

Competition is good. It drives advancement in almost every facet of society. I accept and embrace that, as liberal as I am. But, because I'm liberal, I think that competition produces better results when there is a certain leveling of the playing field. I don't believe in total wealth redistribution. I simply think that there should be a certain minimum level under which nobody falls, so that every person has a legitimate fighting chance to succeed in life, and I do think that it is the responsibility of the very wealthy to provide that, both because they are capable of doing so and because, after all, that wealth exists only because of the labors of many small people have made it possible for big earners to earn big.

With wealth inequality as it is, the odds of a person achieving the so-called American Dream are rapidly eroding.

Thing is, I don't mind if I have to pay more taxes to make sure that my fellow citizens have a place to live, food to eat, health care and an education. People who have those things are very likely going to contribute to my well-being in one way or another.

The American dream is a myth. It used to be an ideal that we aspired to. Now it is only a fantasy that we are led to believe to keep us in the factories making money for someone else.