(November 29, 2013 at 12:20 pm)Raven Wrote: So far as I can see religious belief is entirely an emotional response kind of thing. As a result, trying to dislodge it using logic is like as not going to be a no go. You've been taught this since you can remember and you “know” the truth of it. I see God and man as a parent-child relationship. Look at the dynamics of it. God the Heavenly Father, who is supposed to have made everything, even ourselves. And just like dad, he supposedly loves us, but you had damn well better do as he says. Lots of kids are scared of their fathers. Many still are even after they become adults, they just never get over it. Good God-fearing people (I really hate that term), well, that really tells you all you need to know. If you are afraid of someone then that isn't love. No matter how much they tell you they do. If you are afraid, then there is a reason why, and it isn't love they have for you it is possessiveness.
For God so loved the world that he committed the first case of entrapment in the Garden of Eden against two naifs who just wanted knowledge. So they did something that really was not any big deal, and he acted like they committed multiple felonies. Then along comes this fucked up notion of “original sin” that we all get stuck with. The whole notion of sin is bullshit. Yes there is right and wrong but there is no such thing as sin. Not only that, he further proved how much he loved the world by talking some gullible half-wit into almost killing his own son just to please him. Doesn't matter that he stayed Abraham's hand, it was still a sick thing to do. But he wasn't done yet, just because people kind of pissed him off in general he decides to waste the whole lot of them, along with every other living thing with a flood – he really knows how to show his love, you gotta admit. And you all can think of lots of other wonderful shows of affection in that wonderful old tome, I am sure.
Really, all it comes down to is “I made you, you are mine and I will do whatever I damned well please with you people just because.... I'll entrap you, set standards that cannot possibly be met, be vindictive and dump all kinds of evil on the good and reward the bad for no particular reason. And then send the bulk of you to a fiery pit just because I'm like that. And those of you who get to heaven can spend eternity telling me how wonderful I am.” And all those fundie loons will agree, after all, godsaidit.

You have said a lot here. I suspect that Drich is a dominionist if not a total fucking reconstructionist. Persons such as Rick Perry and Michelle Bachman really are every bit as fucked-up as Drich is.

Another thing that one might note is that all of the things that Drich said about slavery not being intrinsically bad, splitting hairs as to the definition of the word, saying that slaves were better off than they would be otherwise, etc. are all things that the pro-slavery Americans said prior to the civil war.

Yes, these creeps really do consider a primitive, uncivilized, barbaric, inhumane, ignorant, and immoral society to be better than a progressive, educated, civilized, rational, advanced, egalitarian, and free society.

Religion really does poison everything.

I’m hopping threads because the “…Endorse God’s Hatred” thread seems to have run its course. For this thread I’ll repeat some of my response there.

The Holy Scriptures give us a narrative that occurs of a vast period of time. It tells a story of God slowly and surely delivering humanity out of corruption and providing us direction timed to match our ability as a species to receive His redeeming love. Parents use different approaches when their children are toddlers than they do for when they grow into teenagers. The OT commandants and various ordinances remain in the canon because they are still instructive, even if time of their enforcement has expired. Sundry commands relating to a mobile tabernacle are no longer needed when you have a temple. Jesus then preaches the Beatitudes to prepare His church for the destruction of the temple. God reveals to Peter modifications in dietary laws needed to extend the Gospel to the gentile nations.*

So when it comes to the Laws of Moses that governed the ancient Hebrew theocracy, these ordinances matched the needs of God’s chosen people at that particular time in history. At the same time they contain many oddities, like not muzzling the ox while he works, that point to hidden spiritual meanings, because it was never about the ox.

Anyone can see that many of the OT laws were harsh. It was the ancient world. Back then all laws were harsh. After 400 years of captivity an ancient people does not instantly settle into a modern Western-style democracy. At the time of the First Advent, it is estimated that at least 2/3 of humanity was in some form of slavery, peasantry, or indentured servitude. It is only right and fitting that God would adapt his message to this world, mitigating Humanity’s injustice, while at the same time enfolding within the Holy Scriptures the seeds for overcoming this evil, i.e. the Christian abolitionist movement that started with Wilberforce.

As far as I can tell, throughout this progression, God never contradicted his general disapproval of adultery or fornication, including homosexual behavior. As such, your so-called dilemma of having to choose between a world of slavery or a world of that endorses homosexuality is a false one.

*In my own denomination, we affirm that the progress of God’s revelation continues through the writings of Swedenborg to address the needs of post-Enlightenment world society.

(November 29, 2013 at 1:46 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: *In my own denomination, we affirm that the progress of God’s revelation continues through the writings of Swedenborg to address the needs of post-Enlightenment world society.

Kinda like a learn-as-you-go thing I guess everyone needs a prophet to think for them.

Does this mean that religion can... hock: evolve?

Quote:Drich wrote: It does not matter what you do with the people you own, you still own them. I have begals, they were orginally breed for hunting, but I do not use them for hunting. even so they still have that inclination to hunt. Meaning whether I use them for hunting or not they can not escape their nature. Like wise you own your kids, and whether you work them as slaves or not, they too can not escape your ownership. Your will takes precedence over their own. They must surrender themselves to you and your rules.

From the OED: 1: a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
A person's children are not the “legal property of another”. Rather, the parent has legal responsibility for the welfare of their child. With a slave the legal onus was on the slave to obey and work. With a parent-child relationship the legal onus is on the parent to fulfill their responsibility to properly care for their kid. It is not the same thing. All you “own” as a parent is your responsibility.

Quote:Drich wrote: My whole point is that white guilt propaganda had changed the meaning of the word so much that you/we do not truly understand the word any more. You see the word slaves as always being bad. I see the word to mean one who has to surrender his own will to that of another. Now whether that is a good or bad thing completely depends of 'the other.'

What a bunch of crap! The definition of a slave is pretty simple. You are legally the property of another person. Having “to surrender his own will to that of another.” is not nor could it ever be a positive thing, and all your “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” hair-splitting can not change that

Quote:Tokutter asked: So it's ok to take a rod and beat your kids/slaves as long as they don't die within 2 days????

Quote:Drich responded: It depends on what they did.

Living proof that they never should have emptied out the psych wards.

Quote:Drich said: I want to live in a society that only pretends to be intolerant of slavery, but have it's very existence completely depends on it, so I can be a self righteous douche bag and pretend that my life would not completely stop if not for the slave laborers I need to survive. Then what's more if I am feeling extra douchie I will want to also retain the right criticize someone who wants to challenge this practice of burying our collective heads in the sand about modern day slavery, when he says he wants to take the blinders off and call a spade/slave a slave.
Meaning If this guy wants to say hey, what are we doing? How can we say we hate slavery, and Dedicate a whole day of the year to buying insanely cheap slave made products? That these actions not only facilitate slavery they force the consumer goods industry to close up shops in fair trade countries and to open up shops in slave trade countries.. That if this society took the responsibility, of identifying and accepting the slave trade for what it truly is, that those forced into working a slave wage factories, would receive better treatment. I want to reserve the right to call such a person who points to my own hypocrisy a bigot, so I can dismiss what this guys says without having to actually address any of his content.

You must be a fucking teabagging republican. You ever work in a union shop? Oh, right! They don't allow that nasty soshulis' kinda stuff down there where you good God-fearin' Starz n Barz folks all live. Well, my old man was a shop steward. I spent 30 years as a union pest control technician. The fight never fucking stops. When I met my wife she was working here, in the US, in a fucking sweat shop. That's right - piecework. In Brooklyn. The fight is here, not Mexico, not China, here. You are the one who needs to pull his head out of the sand. Those Ayn Rand worshipping, free market, crypto-fascists would turn the entire 99% into slaves if they only could. As it is we're all wage slaves. They've all but destroyed the middle class in this country. Mexico and China's workers will have to solve their own problems. But in the underlying cultures of both those nations the poor were always getting walked on, and it's going to take a lot for them to rise above that.
It's never going to change until people wake up and stop taking it on the chin. They've got to stop longing for that America that never was, and quit voting against their own interest. This is practical politics and your disgusting, malevolent excuse for a deity has nothing whatever to do with it. The damned teabaggers are just using that as a smoke screen for their true agenda, knowing that bozos like you will always follow along.

(November 29, 2013 at 1:20 am)Esquilax Wrote: The really interesting part about your bible's answer to racism, is that in many cases you would be the one disadvantaged by it, unless you're from the tribe of Israel.

No I wouldn't.

Quote:...According to the bible, being from anywhere else means you can be killed, enslaved, lots of things.

Nope. False.

Quote:...Hell, you aren't even saved: Jesus mentioned specifically that he was there as the savior of Israel and nowhere else (Matthew 15:23) where he likens those of other races to dogs.

People who don't accept Jesus' offer of salvation get what choose.

And Jesus offers it to everyone. (that's in the bible)
Anyone can be saved if they a) know what salvation is and b) repent and believe. (that's in the bible)

Quote:Still in favor of what the bible says about racism?

Yes.
For God so loved "the world"...(that's in the bible)
The Gospel is to be offered to ALL NATIONS. (thats in the bible)
Jews. Gentiles. We are all one in Christ. (that's in the bible)

Quote:Jesus repeatedly says throughout Matthew and Mark that he is here for the Jews only (the Children, The Children of Israel, Israel etc.)

Salvation comes from the Jews. (that's in the bible)

Instead of just saying no and sticking your fingers in your ears, at least provide the bible versus that contradict what esquilax is saying

The Bible has been used to justify racism more than any other book in history. You can go on about interpretation -- like anyone should fucking care. But the fact remains.

The xtian right was formed out of trying to retain tax privilege and racist policies for Bob Jones U.

(November 30, 2013 at 10:27 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Instead of just saying no and sticking your fingers in your ears, at least provide the bible versus that contradict what esquilax is saying

And if I do, then what?
Admission of error?
Or...oh, we'll the bible is all lies and made up stuff that doesn't even matter.

(December 1, 2013 at 5:19 am)Lion IRC Wrote:

(November 30, 2013 at 10:27 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Instead of just saying no and sticking your fingers in your ears, at least provide the bible versus that contradict what esquilax is saying

And if I do, then what?
Admission of error?
Or...oh, we'll the bible is all lies and made up stuff that doesn't even matter.

Translated......"no,there is nothing in the bible to refute what Bad Wolf said"

Glad to help out

(December 1, 2013 at 5:19 am)Lion IRC Wrote:

(November 30, 2013 at 10:27 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Instead of just saying no and sticking your fingers in your ears, at least provide the bible versus that contradict what esquilax is saying

And if I do, then what?
Admission of error?
Or...oh, we'll the bible is all lies and made up stuff that doesn't even matter.

I really don't care what the Bible says but the fact remains that the Bible is and has been used to justify racism. Granted, it has also been used to justify the advance of human rights. The Bible says whatever the believer wants it to say. This is glaringly obvious to those of us who are not indoctrinated into a mind-control authoritarian cult.