(December 11, 2013 at 4:53 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: My question then would be this. If you don't give a rats arse what people believe (so long as it's not foisted on you), then why waste the energy on tackling the belief itself? It's the pushing of said belief which us the problem, and I'd be with you on the picket lines for that one.

Because if the belief is rendered as ineffective as it actually is for everyone, then we'll no longer have to fight these battles with those desperate to force it on us? Because even in the private sphere, that belief is harmful, to children and women and gays, among others? Because we like people, and it makes us sad to see them whiling their lives away on a reward that's never going to come?

Because debate is fun?

Good reasons. I especially like because think the beliefs harm people and you want to free them from that harm.

Quite altruistic actually.

(December 11, 2013 at 6:59 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Good reasons. I especially like because think the beliefs harm people and you want to free them from that harm.

Quite altruistic actually.

Right!

There's another reason, actually. One I forgot to add earlier: personally, I want my beliefs to most closely align with reality, and part of the way to get there is to make sure I'm not locked in an echo chamber where the only thing I hear are beliefs like my own. When I talk with a believer about their beliefs, there's always the possibility that they'll say something I didn't know, or present some unique evidence that can convince me to take their position, at least in part. Hasn't happened yet, but there's always the possibility; I'm not trying to convince people of anything I wouldn't do myself, which is to seek what's true as closely as we all can.

It might very well be that the person who believes in a god that endorses the harm I see in religion is dead on correct, in which case, shit, I've got some reassessing of my position to do. That doesn't mean I'll outright endorse all the things I previously fought against, but it does mean I've got to move along my beliefs to another juncture on the soteriological road, and begin again from there. At that point I'll have a better foothold on the truth from which to make my moral arguments, which can only ever lead to increased accuracy and success.

And that's an even better reason! More or less why I'm here actually.

(December 10, 2013 at 6:44 pm)ThomM Wrote: WE have no evidence of a group of a million wandered in the Israeli desert

Not only wandered in the desert, but did so for 38 years with the express purpose that everyone over a certain age would have died before the tribe entered the promised land. I think that would have left a great deal of evidence, not just that such a vast number of people were living in the desert, but that they spent decades there and buried thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of dead during this time.

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(December 10, 2013 at 7:50 pm)Godschild Wrote: Here is a positive statement about Christ being the Son of God and , also God. All else about Christ being or not being God must start from here and match what is said here.

This is where the JWs use the "mistranslated" excuse. They insist on inserting the definite article "a" in John 1:1, so that it reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Then they use scripture where Jesus refers to "the Father" as a way to differentiate between the two. Since they teach that only JWs have divine guidance, the followers accept the first part. That, by itself, is a very strong influence that the other parts help to support.

(December 11, 2013 at 10:11 am)Tonus Wrote:

(December 10, 2013 at 7:50 pm)Godschild Wrote: Here is a positive statement about Christ being the Son of God and , also God. All else about Christ being or not being God must start from here and match what is said here.

This is where the JWs use the "mistranslated" excuse. They insist on inserting the definite article "a" in John 1:1, so that it reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Then they use scripture where Jesus refers to "the Father" as a way to differentiate between the two. Since they teach that only JWs have divine guidance, the followers accept the first part. That, by itself, is a very strong influence that the other parts help to support.

The JW have changed many passages of scripture to fit what they want to believe. I had a JW wife visit today will her cowardly husband set in the car, real men they are, want even stand up for what they believe. I think it's because they know what the JW teaches is a lie.

GC

Quote:The JW have changed many passages of scripture to fit what they want to believe.

Just like you shits.

Really? That's why he stayed in the car? And she told you this, right, or did you forget to ask? Are you jumping to this conclusion because you know you're right, or because you have prejudged their actions?

(December 10, 2013 at 7:18 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Did you perhaps not bother to read what I posted a few pages back? Allow me to restore (all of this IMO of course)

If you're talking about proof of the supernatural, that is both absent and impossible. The only means of recording anything was to write it down and anything written down is only as reliable as the person writing it. 

If you're talking about proof of the events of the late Old testament, for the most part, so far as I know, there is not very much. For the early Old testament, none, and the events within contradict things we think we know to be true (like the age of the earth).

I have a question for you Thom. Why does it matter to you so much? Your posts come across as if you are personally offended by people believing something which is untrue. Ancient history is always going to be controversial in places. If some people choose to believe something happened when you think the evidence states otherwise (or indeed for for which there is no evidence) how does this impact on you?

THERE isn't really a need for the caps bomb is THERE?

THe statement was made that there is ample evidence - and there is none
for the so called supernatural - and virtually none for most of the bible - as YOU point out.

In a group where I am supposed to post references to support MY statements - And have been called to do so by theists in this thread - I expect them to do the very same.

AS far as what this post is - this is a group that discusses the Xtian mythology - and as such has people in favor - and people opposed - at varying levels. IF you are not expecting to have people opposed in an "atheist forum group" - you are not being honest.

(December 11, 2013 at 5:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: The JW have changed many passages of scripture to fit what they want to believe. I had a JW wife visit today will her cowardly husband set in the car, real men they are, want even stand up for what they believe. I think it's because they know what the JW teaches is a lie.

GC

I'm hard-pressed to think of a more grating and depressing experience than being stuck in a room while a JW and a Southern Baptist squabble over whose version of ancient myth is "true."

There's a limit to the amount of horseshit I can ingest in a single sitting.