(December 20, 2013 at 4:28 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

(December 20, 2013 at 3:59 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: Correct. Some of us are atheist.

You know what I meant. Christianity contains some unscrupulous types and some who are misguided and unwise. The same is true of atheists by the way. The actions of those people are not necessarily representative of the whole.

You continue to dodge. The discussion is about praying for a daughter that is brain dead. If you are saying all christians that put forth hope for a miracle recovery through god intervention are being "unscrupulous" then you have effectively destroyed the christian tenet, that there is a loving god out there that will interact with people in the manner set forth in the bible.

There are no atheist "tenets" so there is nothing to be unscrupulous about in regards to atheism. If a man cheats on his taxes then it is merely incidental that he is an atheist. The action and the non-belief cannot have anything to with each other unless the action is in direct response to the unbelief.

The fact that christianity has tenets and principles and atheism does not set them greatly apart.

All christians put forth false hope for this girl because all main variances of this cult put forth that god is all powerful, interactive, and listens to prayers.
If you don't believe there is hope for even a dead girl, let alone just a brain dead girl, then you are only fooling yourself that you are a christian. It is a completely empty claim.

I haven't even started to dodge. Nobody asked me a question yet.

I think that whilst I would not rule out sudden, unexplained and unpredictable recoveries (which some might say were miraculous if they were so inclined, or merely a nice surprise if not) it is irresponsible to PROMISE such a miracle. Not least because even the most rabid of fundies would not say that God does miracles on demand and if you nudge a family down that line of thinking and the person dies anyway, their is the potential for malignant guilt, that the person died because the prayer was somehow not good enough.

Quote:If you don't believe there is hope for even a dead girl, let alone just a brain dead girl, then you are only fooling yourself that you are a christian. It is a completely empty claim.

Anything you say chief. I'll let you decide "What I Am". Pray silence while Brakeman tells me what I Am

(December 21, 2013 at 12:36 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: I haven't even started to dodge. Nobody asked me a question yet.

Sola fides?

If that is your question you may need to be a little more specific. What by faith alone?

(December 21, 2013 at 12:36 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: it is irresponsible to PROMISE such a miracle.
..
Anything you say chief. I'll let you decide "What I Am". Pray silence while Brakeman tells me what I Am

Again another dodge! You have attempted to reshape the discussion into a claim of a "PROMISE", which was never there. You avoid answering this point put to you.

"The discussion is about praying for a daughter that is brain dead. If you are saying all christians that put forth hope for a miracle recovery through god intervention are being "unscrupulous" then you have effectively destroyed the christian tenet, that there is a loving god out there that will interact with people in the manner set forth in the bible."

Are you a believer that claims that god can and might intervene against the physical laws of reality in this situation if just the right person prays for her recovery?

If not, then how can you honestly claim to be a christian when this contradicts all of the known tenets?

Ooooo, attitude! Sorry, your first point was more of a statement than a question. Humblest apologies.

Am I a believer that God might intervene against they physical laws of reality? Sadly I'm going to have to say no. Not in the way they and I suspect you mean.

How can I then claim to be a Christian? Like this.

"I consider myself a Christian"

See how easy that was?

Now you might feel that if I do not believe In that particular aspect of the standard Christian canon I should not call myself a Christian. If so, while I find your view interesting, I fear you don't get to decide what the criteria are for how anyone else expresses their belief. I find it mildly amusing that you do. I bet you're just itching to know what I consider to be the threshold at which you can call yourself an atheist! Have you bbq 'd your quota of babies this year? Or is my view of what constitutes atheism of no interest to you. Perhaps it's none of my business Hmmmmm?

There's an interesting little paradox. If an atheist tells a Christian that they should not call themselves a Christian, is the atheist in fact paying a compliment?

Does that adequately answer you question?

Quote:"I consider myself a Christian"

Ah.... but are you a True Christian? There's the rub.

Oh and the aspect of promise is absolutely there Btw. That's the aspect of Christians behaviour I find distasteful in this situation. The belief itself is one they are fully entitled to.

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(December 21, 2013 at 6:40 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:"I consider myself a Christian"

Ah.... but are you a True Christian? There's the rub.

I don't know. Who decides?

Apparently the Truest Christian.

The title seems up for grabs.

Ah, well that's probably not anyone here then :p

Can't help thinking it's one of those "how many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg" type questions.