(December 26, 2013 at 7:24 am)agapelove Wrote: I am not problem free, but, I used to be depressed and now I am happy. I used to have a lot of fear and now I am at peace. I used to be addicted to many things and now I am sober.

Funny, when I ditched religion the same things happened for me.
I was an atheist/agnostic until age 20; New Age from 20-33, and Christian from 33-46. I do not necessarily consider myself an atheist at this point (due to my own set of personal supernatural experiences). I suspect you'll eventually outgrow the need for a religious system. It sounds like you're evolving - Christianity may just be a rest stop to help you gain perspective and clarity. My best thoughts will be with you as you continue exploring your spirituality, and if you decide to stop seeking now that you've found a messiah, I will rest in the peace that your path has been established. I bid you peace newcomer.

ETA: Amended confusing diction.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:26 pm)Ksa Wrote:

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: After reading your responses, it strikes me as odd the way you do it as though you did not know how most atheists think about Bible proof. I know my sister so well. I know her like the palm of my hand. If she asked me to explain math, I would not explain it by talking about the problem in hand, but I'd show her visuals. I'm atheist and it does nothing for me when you respond with the Bible. I couldn't care less what Jesus said. I know not all atheists are atheists by having done their research, used logic and reason, etc., but rather never started believing in a god in the first place. I know not all atheists think the same, but I still have not met one atheist that would read a Bible verse and say, "Oh! Now I get it! This explains everything!"

Sister, if you go write an exam then the teacher fails you without reading a word of what you wrote in your copy saying "I don't believe she can pass", will you get mad or happy? Is your teacher logical or illogical?

Besides, Christians and Muslims also couldn't care less about what you say, unless? Unless you talk about their scripture. If they say, my scripture is right, and then you say your scripture is wrong, and everyone stops there without proving the scripture wrong or right, there is no communication.

So might as well put them on ignore like Nineteen and not talk to them. But of course, we respect our Christian and Muslim brothers and we have to show to them, from their scripture that they are on the wrong path. If you say I don't care about your Bible or about your Qur'an, they stop listening to you. So there is no communication.

I'm not your sister.

I have no need to ignore anyone. I appreciate his/her time to respond. It's great. ♥

Furthermore, I don't mind using the Bible for other topics, and I have done it before. When the question in hand is going from disbelief to belief, I find it unnecessary. Like I said, not all atheists are the same. If at the end the main reason for conversion ends up being the Bible and he/she feels strongly about it, well... wow. But ok. To each their own.

Again, I appreciate Agape's participation.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:26 pm)agapelove Wrote:

(December 26, 2013 at 4:08 pm)Ksa Wrote: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Is plagiarism! It has no religious value. These are NOT the words of Jesus. Who's words? JOHN! Where did John copy those from? Philo of Alexandria, who had written them even before John and Jesus were born. So you can't accept these words as the words of God, or the words of John or Jesus, they are the words of a jerk-off! So, once a thief, always a thief, the words of John are nil.

Could you give a citation that it was stolen please? Remember that John was writing in Greek and so he was using their vocabulary to communicate these ideas. There is currently no reason to doubt his eye witness testimony is sincere, and you'll find a lot of what we understand about historical figures comes from eye witness testimony. You might want to check out this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_...eliability

Let's say for arguments sake that the text is reliable. Is the counter argument not a plausible explanation for the apparent contradiction? If not, why not?

Ok no problem

Do you know Greek? What's the Greek word for God in the quotation "and the Word was With God"? It's Hotheos. Which means? The God. We accept this with a capital G so Hotheos is rendered the god with small g which in turn is rendered God. Correct?

What about the second portion "and the Word was God"? The word is Tontheos, meaning a god. So according to your system you should have spelled the second term with a small g and not a capital G.

And in 2 Corinthians 4:4 you dishonestly reverse the system using a small g to spell God! And the devil is the god of this world. The Greek word is Hotheos as in John 1:1. It should have been the God. Why be inconsistent in your translation?

(December 26, 2013 at 4:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: 1. Supernatural experiences: How were they supernatural? What you explained sounds like an elation, euphoria, inspiration. You went from atheist to Christian because of something supernatural that you experienced, so this must have been very convincing. Something that left a skeptical mind with zero arguments. What was it?

2. Why Christ? Chad says that people lean towards the god that is common where they live (or something to the effect, sorry, I might be wrong in what he meant), but this is not enough when you go from atheist to Christian. If you were atheist, you dismissed any god as existent. What made you say, "There is a god and it's this one,"?

Thank you for taking the time to participate in this discussion.

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I hadn't read the new Age thing yet... I was busy typing. You can fit that right into your response, lol.

She was an atheist because she hadn't been taught to believe in God, not because she was a freethinker.

ok. This makes sense.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:25 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Hmm. Agape was not raised to believe, but neither did she 'think her way' out of her previous beliefs. She was more like a blank slate regarding supernatural beliefs than a committed rationalist. I don't think she has the same standards of evidence we've derived. I find her conversion more plausible for that reason. A rational skeptic would seek alternative explanations for their experiences, but agape may well have accepted them at face value.

This is why I think it important to teach critical thinking and unimportant to teach atheism. A conclusion you reach for yourself is...better.

Whenever I find a Christian that used to be an atheist, invariably they were this type.


They were an atheist due to not being raised with religious indoctrination, but they were not taught how to think. So, as soon as the something comes along that makes them feel good, or 'explains' questions they have, they latch on and believe.

(December 26, 2013 at 3:33 pm)agapelove Wrote: A famous example is Anthony Flew, who was actually a very preeminent atheist for most of his life. I don't know if he ever became a Christian but he was at least a theist.

Anthony Flew is not a good example for a number of reasons. He was known to be at decreased mental faculties, he was swayed by bad biological info and he did not become a theist, he became a deist.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: Sorry I took so long to reply. I went to sleep at 4AM and woke up really, really late. I have been having a lot of things going on and sleeping has not been one of them. I finally got some.

sok I went to sleep around that time too so I know how you feel.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: After reading your responses, it strikes me as odd the way you do it as though you did not know how most atheists think about Bible proof. I know my sister so well. I know her like the palm of my hand. If she asked me to explain math, I would not explain it by talking about the problem in hand, but I'd show her visuals. I'm atheist and it does nothing for me when you respond with the Bible. I couldn't care less what Jesus said. I know not all atheists are atheists by having done their research, used logic and reason, etc., but rather never started believing in a god in the first place. I know not all atheists think the same, but I still have not met one atheist that would read a Bible verse and say, "Oh! Now I get it! This explains everything!"

I do understand that atheists will not accept a biblical explanation for much of anything. The thing is, I'm not sure which responses you're referring to. Looking them over, the only responses I've made quoting the bible was in reply to KSA, who made a theological argument to me from the scriptures. In that case I think it was entirely appropiate to use scripture in my response. Could you point out which reply it was in particular?

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: Anyway, on to the things about your response that really made my brain itch.

1. Supernatural experiences: How were they supernatural? What you explained sounds like an elation, euphoria, inspiration. You went from atheist to Christian because of something supernatural that you experienced, so this must have been very convincing. Something that left a skeptical mind with zero arguments. What was it?

Well, they were experiences that touched my soul and transformed my inner being. They turned something on that was never there before in my experience. Therein lies the problem in that I liken it to describing sight to a blind man. However, I honestly did consider the various arguments that I have seen people mention thus far, that I was having a psychotic break or confirmation bias or what have you. I evaluated all of these experiences with a skeptical eye but their consistency and continuity with reality led me to believe that the weight of evidence was greater that these were real experiences and not something I was just imagining.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: 2. Why Christ? Chad says that people lean towards the god that is common where they live (or something to the effect, sorry, I might be wrong in what he meant), but this is not enough when you go from atheist to Christian. If you were atheist, you dismissed any god as existent. What made you say, "There is a god and it's this one,"?

I touched on this a bit in my testimony, and believe me, the last thing I'd ever thought I would be was a Christian. The initial revelation of a spiritual reality led me into the new age, and the exploration of the various religions led me, at the last, to read the bible. Because of certain revelation I had received before I read it, I came to the conclusion it was His book. I wasn't absolutely sure about it, but it was enough to get me to give my life to the Lord. When I did that, my life completely changed and my search for who God is was over. Everything that has happened since then has confirmed my experience.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: Thank you for taking the time to participate in this discussion.

It's been fun and interesting so far. Thanks for making the thread.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:36 pm)Ivy Wrote: I'm not your sister.

I know, we're not related, there's no problem you can ask me out

Would just like to add, I'm not a she but a he. I also see that a few people are saying that I was not a critical thinker prior to my belief in God. You're free to believe that, but as I pointed this out earlier, it is basically the no true scotsman fallacy. I understood why I believed what I believed, and I could articulate it rationally. There are testimonies of professors, scientists and philosophers converting from atheism to Christianity and they were not intellectually weak or ignorant of logic. So I don't think it's fair to simply dismiss me as being intellectually weak or ignorant of logic just because you think a belief in God is irrational. It's okay though if you do, it isn't going to hurt my feelings.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:50 pm)agapelove Wrote:

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: Sorry I took so long to reply. I went to sleep at 4AM and woke up really, really late. I have been having a lot of things going on and sleeping has not been one of them. I finally got some.

sok I went to sleep around that time too so I know how you feel.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: After reading your responses, it strikes me as odd the way you do it as though you did not know how most atheists think about Bible proof. I know my sister so well. I know her like the palm of my hand. If she asked me to explain math, I would not explain it by talking about the problem in hand, but I'd show her visuals. I'm atheist and it does nothing for me when you respond with the Bible. I couldn't care less what Jesus said. I know not all atheists are atheists by having done their research, used logic and reason, etc., but rather never started believing in a god in the first place. I know not all atheists think the same, but I still have not met one atheist that would read a Bible verse and say, "Oh! Now I get it! This explains everything!"

I do understand that atheists will not accept a biblical explanation for much of anything. The thing is, I'm not sure which responses you're referring to. Looking them over, the only responses I've made quoting the bible was in reply to KSA, who made a theological argument to me from the scriptures. In that case I think it was entirely appropiate to use scripture in my response. Could you point out which reply it was in particular?

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: Anyway, on to the things about your response that really made my brain itch.

1. Supernatural experiences: How were they supernatural? What you explained sounds like an elation, euphoria, inspiration. You went from atheist to Christian because of something supernatural that you experienced, so this must have been very convincing. Something that left a skeptical mind with zero arguments. What was it?

Well, they were experiences that touched my soul and transformed my inner being. They turned something on that was never there before in my experience. Therein lies the problem in that I liken it to describing sight to a blind man. However, I honestly did consider the various arguments that I have seen people mention thus far, that I was having a psychotic break or confirmation bias or what have you. I evaluated all of these experiences with a skeptical eye but their consistency and continuity with reality led me to believe that the weight of evidence was greater that these were real experiences and not something I was just imagining.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: 2. Why Christ? Chad says that people lean towards the god that is common where they live (or something to the effect, sorry, I might be wrong in what he meant), but this is not enough when you go from atheist to Christian. If you were atheist, you dismissed any god as existent. What made you say, "There is a god and it's this one,"?

I touched on this a bit in my testimony, and believe me, the last thing I'd ever thought I would be was a Christian. The initial revelation of a spiritual reality led me into the new age, and the exploration of the various religions led me, at the last, to read the bible. Because of certain revelation I had received before I read it, I came to the conclusion it was His book. I wasn't absolutely sure about it, but it was enough to get me to give my life to the Lord. When I did that, my life completely changed and my search for who God is was over. Everything that has happened since then has confirmed my experience.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: Thank you for taking the time to participate in this discussion.

It's been fun and interesting so far. Thanks for making the thread.

Hey, thanks for sharing, very insightful so far.

I've asked earlier but you might have missed it, so here it is again: mind giving us examples of what you experienced? It would be interesting to see if we would react the same way.

I was once a christian, it was a position of ignorance more than anything really. But I did have a few "experiences" tied to the bible but I shook them off after I understood more about how the brain works and after I see the bible for the fiction that it is. And I have had more "spiritual" experiences (mainly euphoria, feelings of being connected to the universe, time and space, being part of something bigger, that sort of stuff), since. But I have never attributed them to god and I highly doubt any personal experience would even sway my position as intellectually I do not accept those as evidence because truths are not personal but universal.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:04 pm)agapelove Wrote: Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He suffered the same weaknesses and afflictions that we do, yet He never succumbed to them.

Do you think it was possible for Jesus to sin? If so, what do you think would have happened had he done so? It's one of those scenarios that I find pretty interesting in that it helps understand how we see god as a person and concept.

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(December 26, 2013 at 4:36 pm)Ivy Wrote: I'm not your sister.

*wipes brow* Oh good! Then these dirty thoughts don't count as incest.