Quote:The experiences were not just transcendent love, peace and joy but also things which happen in the world. I started to experience numerous coincidences until it seemed they were not coincidences but deliberate orchestrations. For instance, going across country and meeting the same two people a thousand miles away at the same place and time when they didn't know eachother, weren't traveling your route, and were actually headed in two completely different directions.

Same two people as what? I think I'm missing something here.

Quote: Needing a certain amount of money and having someone slip you the exact amount anonymously when you hadn't told anyone. Needing certain items and having people come out of the woodwork to give them to you.

This happened to my family when I was growing up numerous times. I'm atheist.

Quote:Having one leg that was shorter than the other grown out to be even with the other leg.

An evangelist from Argentina visited our church when I was 15 and prayed for my legs in front of everyone. One of my legs is slightly longer than the other (not really noticeable, unless you get to know me and are aware of my lack of self esteem. My lack of confidence does not resemble the way my hips move when I walk lol). Anyway, this dude prayed for my legs in front of everyone and we all saw my leg grow. We all saw it. I spent the following days making myself walk different with fear of the god taking the miracle away for lack of faith, though I could clearly see that my leg was back to normal already. Funny thing... but... we all saw it. Yes, we did. I mean it. I'm not kidding.

Quote:Dreaming about something and then having it repeated to you by people multiple times.

I had a dream at age six and I had it again several times through out my life. All of it came true, unfortunately.

Quote:Studying something specific and having it repeated to you by people multiple times.

I studied many specific things, too. For example, math. More specifically, fractions. Every time I go to the store and ask for a kilo of beef, the guy behind the counter weighs it and replies, "Is 3/4 ok?" Some business guy, the poor fellow.

Quote: Things of that nature.

Naturally.

Quote: I couldn't really begin to describe how many of these things have happened. Individually you might write some of them off, but taken together they add up to a chain of evidence of the actions of an all powerful God. Not absolute proof but they certainly helped me to see that God is in control. Looking back on my life I can clearly see that the amazing things I had written off as coincidence were the hand of God over my life.

So, basically... if it's extraordinary, it's divine. If it's divine, it's the Christian god.

Quote:The revelation was about the triune nature of God. I kept getting signs about God being 3 in 1 (literally hundreds and hundreds of times) but I didn't get it until I read the bible. The signs were usually in numbers, like 333, and I could feel God showing me something about Himself, but I didn't get it until I read the bible.

I like sex and I see 69 everywhere. Again, I'm not kidding.


So, what I'm trying to say is that yeah, man, things happen. extraordinary things happen. Sometimes those things are great, sometimes they're awful. Sometimes people will do things that seem to hit the spot and leave you speechless, "Oh, my FSM, how did you KNOW?" And maybe they didn't.

Sometimes people will see a leg grow. Sometimes a sugar pill will heal a person that thought the pill was real medicine.

Sometimes I will study something that sticks on my mind... and I will start noticing that people bring it up all the time all of a sudden. You know, like when you buy a car that you didn't see a lot before, but now that you have it, you see it everywhere.

Sometimes you will have extraordinary sex and start seeing 69s everywhere (the number of posts on a thread, the number of kudos in a week, the number of people going to a play, etc.). Shit happens. Why does is happen?

hmmmm... there could be many possibilities.
Aliens.
Allah.
Jehovah.
I giant baby from a planet far, far away.
An invisible creature we have yet to discover.
A force.
Coincidence.
Hypnosis.
Illusion.
Delusion.
Subconscious.
Triggers.
Conspiracy.
Mother in law.

I don't know, therefore, Jesus? You say you read the Bible. Did you also read the Book of Mormon? The Quran? How exactly did it make sense that all of it had an explanation in Christ?

If you were an atheist, were you atheist because you didn't know enough about any gods to even take notice, or was it a conclusion reached by critical thought and reason? This reminds me of the Catholics around here. I ask them about the original sin and the stare at me with googly eyes. They are Catholic by default. They grew up around it and they consider themselves Catholic, yet they know nothing about their own "beliefs". They believe that what their parents believe is true, but don't really know what it is that they believe in. Why were you atheist? How did you determine that there was no reason to believe in any gods? Could it be that you were like an empty vase ready to be filled with something... anything? Because... I am skeptical of an atheist who had researched deities and science, who had given things some thought in order to reach a logical conclusion that believing in a god does not make sense would consider these things you mention... evidence, supernatural phenomena, and revelations.

^ The Qur'an is clear and concise about the fate of Jesus. Allah says in Surat An-Nisā' 4:157 which says:

"And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."

Muslims would never had taken the chance to write that unless they knew for a fact it was true, because we know the Qur'an is one of the most ambiguous book ever written, a book of signs...it is a book of ayads. Very confusing BUT, that ONE statement is crystal clear. They knew it couldn't be intellectually contradicted. Maybe they knew more then we know today and they trashed the evidence.

The man on the cross, supposedly Jesus said ellay ellay lamassa bahtani! Oh God, oh God, why has though forsaken ME? Why ME? Someone else is guilty for this crime and was supposed to suffer, not me. So that's 1 clue among many.

The reason why Christians are very combative of this is because without a crucifixion, there is no Christianity. Christians believe that Jesus had to die AS A GOD BECAUSE A MAN CANNOT CARRY OUT THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

So I'm saying God died? Not only you want me to believe that there is a God, you also have to believe that Jesus was God and ON TOP OF ALL THAT, you have to believe that GOD DIED?

It's too much lol.

Atheist to Christian conversions do happen. They are very rare. I have read accounts from those who really did not accept the insufficient evidence for supernatural claims on the grounds that these claims do not operate within the bounds of reality as we know it to be and then embrace a religious ideology as a result of some amazing experience.

I do not accept the 'no true atheist' fallacy on the same grounds that I don't accept the 'no true xtian' fallacy. That being said, people can and do have profound changes in the way that they think. Theoretically, anyone of us could join a cult if approached by the right people, in the right way, at the right time in our lives. ALmost invariably people go through a conversion process at a point in which they are having extreme difficulties in their lives. People can and do have experiences that do appear to be, on the surface, a radical departure from the way that we know the real world really works.

Personally, I have had an experience in which I felt that I was somehow connected with the universe -- a strange and profound "oneness" with everything. I felt connected with the cosmos and I felt connected with even the pebbles that lay at my feet. I do have to add that I was tripping balls on more than one hits of some pretty hefty LSD at the time. So in retrospect I have to say that this experience was more a result of mind-altering chemicals than gaining a perception of a higher reality or more advanced consciousness. I was tripping and had a really trippy experience -- that simple.

I do believe that some people are naturally more prone to supernatural magical thinking than others. And it really is a different way of thinking. I have never been a xtian and probably never will be one. I have, however, been a member of a cult. I was in and out of Alcoholics Anonymous for years before I came to the realization that the whole program was a crock of shit. It is, however, through my attempts at embracing the AA dogma that I understand fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. (AA is an abstract version of xtian fundamentalism.)

So, my experience in AA -- trying to adapt a program of magical thinking while having a natural propensity toward rational and skeptical thinking -- required cognitive dissonance by the boatloads. I bought in to the propaganda, pushed by the so-called "professionals" at the treatment center that I endured, the AA was the "proven" method and they only reliable method by which one can overcome excessive alcohol consumption. The program "suggests" that one embrace a religious belief system in order to stay sober, but that one does not have to believe in god -- because the god of AA can be whatever you want it to. It does not work for an atheist and it took me way too long to figure that out. I'm saying this because I feel that this life experience has enabled me to understand the cognitive dissonance and denial that is accompanied with embracing an artificial belief system.

I can also understand why it is difficult to imagine how a person can go from a point of rational thinking to embracing magical thinking. Then it becomes even more unseemly when persons such as Kirk Cameron and Lee Stroebel, who are so obviously full of shit, are out there claiming that they were once atheists. Realistic thinking and magical thinking are very different from the very foundation. We do not test claims against a magic book that is so right that even when it's obviously wrong, it's magically right. There is no such book. We do not test claims against a doctrine -- we test them against real-world evidence based on facts.

But I did try. When I was in AA i tried to bend the construct to meet reality, this led to a hefty does of denial. (The program is anything you want it to be -- horseshit.) I left AA for good in 2001. It's a long story, but in a nutshell, I looked at the program from a deconstructionist and critical analysis point of view. My blinders came off and so did my denial and cognitive dissonance.

Do not underestimate the power of an organized group of true believers to suck people in. They invented 'love bombing' and the 'slow reveal'. And they have perfected the art of getting nonbelievers to accept the burden of convincing themselves they are wrong to not believe. The main thing you need to remain a nonbeliever is sales resistance.

(December 27, 2013 at 5:15 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Do not underestimate the power of an organized group of true believers to suck people in. They invented 'love bombing' and the 'slow reveal'. And they have perfected the art of getting nonbelievers to accept the burden of convincing themselves they are wrong to not believe. The main thing you need to remain a nonbeliever is sales resistance.

That explains cults that go out and proselytize. The more true believers there are, the more they think that the bullshit must be true. But then we look at groups like The Westboro baptist Church -- they do not and will not accept any converts anymore at all. Steve Drain was and will be the last outsider accepted into the fold. There are around 50 members now. They do not have the luxury of "safety in numbers." Yet, they keep on believing.

@Whateverist, (WARNING, LONG POST) I have much to say about the subject of “Meaning”, whether is intrinsic or applied or other, but must leave that for a later post.

Seeing Patterns in Random Data: Perhaps. I can imagine faces and animals in the clouds like anyone else. I can also pick out pop culture references in movies, sacred geometry in architecture, and many literary tropes. I’m not impressed by shadow faces on Mars or Madonna shaped stains under I-290 in Chicago, but sometimes apparent patterns actually do have significance. Like most Christians, I believe in Divine authorship of Holy Scripture. If believers are correct about this, then it stands to reason that the Lord would fold different levels of meaning into the text just like human authors do.

Could others find the similar deep meanings in the religious literature of other faiths. I cannot say because of my ignorance. I have only a cursory understanding of comparative religion. I can tell you that Swedenborgians do not believe that all the texts of the canon contain the deeper meanings that we call “correspondences”. Some, like the Epistles, are mostly for instruction. Given that, I doubt that the Koran,Vedas, etc. have the same correspondence with spiritual realities that the Law, Prophets, and Gospels do, even though they may be instructive and contain spiritual insights. But I will never know, just as I do not expect Muslims to understand the subtle differences between the various Christian denominations.

As I said in the previous post, the variety of religious belief does not bother me for a couple of reasons. The foremost is this: orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy. Following the Good is more important than knowing the Truth. You can know the truth but still have difficulty doing it, but if you do good than you will recognize the truth without difficulty. To do good in New Church terms means two things: 1) loving the Lord with all your might and neighbor as self & 2) refraining from evils because they are sins. Any religious person that follows the tenets of their faith in love will satisfy these requirements. So while I do believe that New Church doctrine provides more light and presents a deeper understanding of the Holy Scriptures, this does not give Swedenborgians any special edge salvation wise.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:57 pm)agapelove Wrote: ...
I did consider many different possibilities, such as confirmation bias, or that I had something wrong with my brain, or even the idea that I was completely insane, but none of those were in any consistent with the reality I experienced. Insanity, as I have observed, is messy business but my life was becoming more well ordered and not disordered. I was gaining in character and virtue and not losing it. In the end, I don't mind being a fool for Christ. I understand everyone here thinks I am crazy, and that's okay; I love you anyway.

"...but none of those were in any consistent with the reality what I experienced."

Saying it was a reality you experienced is claiming too much. All you can claim is an internal experience. There is no way to objectively verify it.

You had thoughts and emotions, or possibly a delusion. You cannot dismiss that out of hand.

(December 27, 2013 at 6:23 pm)Chas Wrote:

(December 27, 2013 at 3:57 pm)agapelove Wrote: ...
I did consider many different possibilities, such as confirmation bias, or that I had something wrong with my brain, or even the idea that I was completely insane, but none of those were in any consistent with the reality I experienced. Insanity, as I have observed, is messy business but my life was becoming more well ordered and not disordered. I was gaining in character and virtue and not losing it. In the end, I don't mind being a fool for Christ. I understand everyone here thinks I am crazy, and that's okay; I love you anyway.

"...but none of those were in any consistent with the reality what I experienced."

Saying it was a reality you experienced is claiming too much. All you can claim is an internal experience. There is no way to objectively verify it.

You had thoughts and emotions, or possibly a delusion. You cannot dismiss that out of hand.

As Michael Shermer has said, "before you say that something is out of this world, make sure that it is not in it." (something to that effect.)

I also see a few other things going on in Agapelove's post. He is no doubt part of a group situation here. Most likely some kind of church. His story is one of many like it among the members. They are all very similar, in that, they involve a kind of 'revelation.' The group encourages the members to believe that they have experienced something other-worldly because that is what the belief system is based on. This is, no matter how much Agape may protest, confirmation bias.

The group demands a supernatural interpretation of the members' personal experience. I would encourage Agape to go a couple of moths without going to church or participating in their activities and then look back on his experience -- thus looking at it without the heavy confirmation bias.

Then I look at the claim that his life is more orderly and less haphazard since he had his woo-woo experience and joined a cult (order of events?) Yes, for a person who is involved in a structured and authoritarian environment -- they will place limits on behaviors that would not be pleasing to the leadership of the group. Regularly scheduled meetings do create structure. Having an external system of control enables some people to live a more orderly lifestyle, however, studies demonstrate (particularly studies on cognitive behavioral science) that a person can gain a very orderly and predictable lifestyle through methods of self-control. No god or group-think needed.

Then we see the saved-sinner routine. All the negative aspects of his life before conversion are exaggerated and the positive aspects minimized. Vice versa after conversion.

If Agape would do as I suggested, and dump the cult for just two months -- he would be able to see his experience for what it really is and see how the group has infested his thinking -- cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and flat-out denial.

As I brought up earlier -- I do believe that some people are more prone to magical thinking than others. Some people, I suspect, just have some inner need to go talking to the sky, and pretending to get answers, when they know damn good and well that they do not. There are some people who do naturally function better under an authoritarian system than they do setting their own goals.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:29 pm)agapelove Wrote: When scientists form theories, they don't know if their theories are correct. I have seen a quote by a scientist which says that the greatest mettle for a scientist is patience because 99 percent of theory turns out to be wrong. They may spend many years working entirely in the dark before they get any results. They are testing the waters, so to speak. It's the same thing with prayer. You don't know if God is there, and the one thing you've heard that works is prayer; better to try it than to leave it untried. What you know about prayer is that it is said to be how we communicate with God. So, if you have even the slightest inkling to find out whether there is a God, the best way to do that would be to pray. You could not pray entirely sincerely, no, and you might not see any reply initially, but what the scripture guarantees is this; if you want to know if Jesus is real, and you ask for that information, that door will open for you. That is the promise: knock, and it will be opened for you. When you see it you will recognize it for what it is, but if you don't want to walk through it that is your choice.

And as others have mentioned, many of us come from backgrounds where we were christian, so clearly prayer isn't as effective as you seem to think.

Quote:I appreciate it. I am open to correction but it is my understanding that the concensus even among atheist bible scholars is that Jesus did exist. Even Richard Dawkins admitted that Jesus existed. The vast majority of what Jesus said was utterly unique. A good example of something Jesus taught on which was already well known is the golden rule, but you'll find the roots of that in the Old Testament.

I'm also of the opinion that there was a historical Jesus, I just find it strange that for someone that could make miracles happen, there's so little contemporary confirmation of his existence. So much of Jesus' story is echoed in other, earlier religions and mythologies (Horus, Mithra, etc etc) and consequently, many of his teachings can be found elsewhere too. You're wrong about the golden rule, for example: it pops up in ancient Babylon, China, India and so forth, well before the bible came about.

Quote:Well, if you study the history of western civilization it is married to Christianity, and that is what has shaped the world for the last 2000 years. 1/3 of the worlds population claims to be Christian so that would be a majority in the sense that it is greater than any other group.

Except that you're vastly overstating the importance of your religion on the world stage, or even in western culture, helped in no small part by the vagueness with which you're doing it. And I also notice you aren't splitting your religious group down into its component parts (catholics, protestants etc) to get your number; remember, according to each of those groups, the others aren't true christians. Do they really all unite together like that, except through numerical convenience?

Regardless, we're skipping over the important fact that what you're really doing here is a simple argument from popularity: it wouldn't matter even if you're right, because the level of influence something has, and the number of followers it accrues, says nothing about whether or not it's true. The most you can really say out of this is that many people have been tricked; you haven't come a step closer to proving that the reason they all follow christianity is because there's a real god making that happen.

Can you demonstrate that?

Quote:I'm not sure why anyone believes that a study about prayer would prove something when God is the one who controls the results.

God can't lie, can he? So if he's controlling the results, wouldn't that mean that he's bound to produce truthful results for the experiment, or else he'd be lying through his actions? So you're now in a situation where either god was telling the truth, and hence prayer is ineffective, or that god was lying, which is something sinful that he apparently can't do. Which is it?

Quote:I'm not invoking Pascals Wager because I think that has to do with becoming a Christian, doesn't it? I just said pray, not convert. Taking a minute to pray has no consequences at all.

Pascal's Wager is, in short: "Just be a christian: there's no cost involved, and you're saving yourself from potentially infinite risk." You got real close.

(December 27, 2013 at 4:31 pm)agapelove Wrote: I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal about my being a former atheist.

I am not "making a big deal" about anything. I just can't stand it when Jesus freaks come around here claiming to be former atheists in an attempt to "demonstrate" that if we "open our hearts", we too will "find the answer". It is an obvious appeal to authority.

Quote:If you are searching you are looking for an answer, and when you find that answer you don't need to search anymore. Do you know there isn't an answer?

I know there isn't a question to be answered.