(December 27, 2013 at 5:46 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Numbers and signs. That has confirmation bias written all over it. So this convinced you that it wasn't just god, it was the god of the bible? That's it? Come on, the bible talks about thousands of things and the fact that you see a lot of 3s makes all of them true?

Well, I already believed in God at that point. That was why the signs were important, which is that I felt like God was telling me a very fundamental and important truth about Himself which I didn't understand until I read the bible. That didn't tell me the whole bible was true but that at least some of it was true, enough for me to convert and give Jesus a chance to show me who He is.

(December 27, 2013 at 5:46 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Let me tell you something, my grandparents are buddhists. Not the hippie type, the other type. And my grandfather had a dream where guanying (one of the ones they pray to) came and gave him lottery numbers. He bought the numbers and won.

The reason none of these are good enough evidence is because plenty of these things have happened to people of other religions which sucked them deeper into their religions. The obvious conclusion, and also the one that assumes the least, is that all of these are coincidences. You cannot conclude that all gods are real because that is not evidence of gods' existences, and that is assuming way too much. For those who conclude that, well that did not happen to me, therefore it's irrelevant to the my truth; they are just ignoring evidence and pretending that something like god's existence is a personal thing, it isn't, it should be a universal truth.

In the Christian perspective, it is not just God who gives signs to people. I received many lying signs which I thought were from God which led me to believe in my new age version of God. So, it's not that I believe that people who believe in other Gods are confused, but they are being actively deceived. That they have good reasons to believe what they believe (as far as they are aware).

(December 27, 2013 at 5:46 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Another question, if you don't mind. I understand how you were convinced of god's existence. What convinced you to worship him? I cannot really think of anything that can convince me to worship someone unless with the threat of hell

Something that seems universal among atheists is an awe and wonder at the grandeur, the majestic beauty of the cosmos. The complex unity of creation, from the macro to the micro, is so wonderful and mysterious, isn't it? I think this is where the spirituality of atheists most comes into play. Now, considering all of that, maybe you can see that I feel the same way about the Universe but that I attribute it to God. When I am in awe of the wonder of it all, I am in awe of Him. When I see the beauty of a flower, I see His heart. When I marvel at the animals, their good humor and innocence, their connection to the ecosystem, I see His joy and His genius. I could go on but I think you get the picture. I find it very easy to worship the God who created this Universe because the Creation itself testifies to how awesome He really is. That doesn't even begin to highlight what I feel about what Jesus has done for me.

God said He is seeking those who will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. What that means is that you worship Him from your heart. You couldn't truly worship God out of fear, but it is right to have an awe and reverance and respect for Him. As you get to know God your heart will change because you will know His love, even in the greatest adversity, He is there.

(December 27, 2013 at 6:00 am)Esquilax Wrote: That's a part of my question, but the rest of it was, why pray at all, given that prayer has only a specifically religious purpose and I'd have no reason to do it before I believe in the entity I'm praying to? See, if I were to pray right now and get no answer, the standard religious response is either that I wasn't doing it sincerely- which would be absolutely correct, because how can I sincerely talk to a being I don't think exists?- or that god's response isn't necessarily the one I expect, in which case, how could I be sure it was a response from god at all?

When scientists form theories, they don't know if their theories are correct. I have seen a quote by a scientist which says that the greatest mettle for a scientist is patience because 99 percent of theory turns out to be wrong. They may spend many years working entirely in the dark before they get any results. They are testing the waters, so to speak. It's the same thing with prayer. You don't know if God is there, and the one thing you've heard that works is prayer; better to try it than to leave it untried. What you know about prayer is that it is said to be how we communicate with God. So, if you have even the slightest inkling to find out whether there is a God, the best way to do that would be to pray. You could not pray entirely sincerely, no, and you might not see any reply initially, but what the scripture guarantees is this; if you want to know if Jesus is real, and you ask for that information, that door will open for you. That is the promise: knock, and it will be opened for you. When you see it you will recognize it for what it is, but if you don't want to walk through it that is your choice.

(December 27, 2013 at 6:00 am)Esquilax Wrote: I'm going to be really very polite and not swear like I usually would, but this is actually dead wrong; from a historical perspective we can't even confirm that Jesus existed, let alone said any of the things he said, but even ignoring that, much of what Jesus was purported to have said was said by others that predate him.

I appreciate it. I am open to correction but it is my understanding that the concensus even among atheist bible scholars is that Jesus did exist. Even Richard Dawkins admitted that Jesus existed. The vast majority of what Jesus said was utterly unique. A good example of something Jesus taught on which was already well known is the golden rule, but you'll find the roots of that in the Old Testament.

(December 27, 2013 at 6:00 am)Esquilax Wrote: But there's another important thing you're missing, which is that the majority of the world is not Christian, and therefore their historical perspectives don't factor him into it at all. Even accepting your premise, the influence of Christ isn't as widespread as you'd like us to believe.

Well, if you study the history of western civilization it is married to Christianity, and that is what has shaped the world for the last 2000 years. 1/3 of the worlds population claims to be Christian so that would be a majority in the sense that it is greater than any other group.

(December 27, 2013 at 6:00 am)Esquilax Wrote: Here's a study: performed by a religious organization, this study shows that prayer has no more efficacy than chance, and in fact makes people worse off when they know they're being prayed for.

I'm not sure why anyone believes that a study about prayer would prove something when God is the one who controls the results.

(December 27, 2013 at 6:00 am)Esquilax Wrote: Um, really? You're going to end on Pascal's Wager? Okay, lemme get out my debunking kit...

So, first of all, there isn't no risk: just in terms of material consequences, you've wasted time in church, money on tithing, mental energy thinking about something that doesn't exist, and possibly more, depending on the stripe of christian you are. In terms of the other risks, you're also risking infinite punishment if one of the other religions turns out to be the right one and you've been praying to the wrong god. Just saying.

I'm not invoking Pascals Wager because I think that has to do with becoming a Christian, doesn't it? I just said pray, not convert. Taking a minute to pray has no consequences at all.

(December 27, 2013 at 7:14 am)Tonus Wrote: Most other theists (who answered the question) responded similarly, and I probably would have when I was a believer. Though the responses usually are along the lines of "he couldn't really have failed." The situation brings up some important questions that I think the believer has to ask himself.

Did god rig the game? Jesus became flesh so that he could trade one perfect human life for another (the one that Adam lost). He became flesh that he might better understand our frailty (per Paul's writing). So if he knew he would not give in to temptation, then there was no risk of failure as there is for a frail human, and god played a game of Russian Roulette where he knew there was no round in the chamber.

And that's actually the better option, since the other option would be to risk failure and the possible consequences if Jesus had transgressed even once. With the only hope of salvation lost, humanity would face a future of despair, with no hope of ever recovering the gifts given by god and lost by Adam before any of us had a chance to make the choice ourselves. At this point, what does god do? Wipe everything out? He would need to acknowledge that creation was not "good" and that he had gotten it wrong and that Satan may have been right!

Think about it. Why bother to set up that scenario? It either risked failure, which put the fate of all creation on a roll of the dice. Or it could not have failed at all, in which case it was an exercise in pure vanity, god reminding us that there was still one being in the universe who couldn't screw up something as simple as "do this, don't do this." None of those options gives us god as we envision him if we are a believer. Not easy to reconcile without handwaving or admitting that there's a lot we can't know about the situation until such time as god clears it up, if he ever chooses to.

Well, the scripture says Jesus is the lamb slain *before* the foundation of the world. Which means that God already knew what would happen before He created anything, so He prepared a Savior beforehand. We see in Genesis 3 that God gave the prophecy of the one coming from the line of Adam who would crush the head of the serpent. As far as God was concerned, the future is set in stone, so there was no risk per say. That isn't to say that Jesus wasn't tempted, but that God knew that Jesus would overcome every single temptation.

(December 27, 2013 at 10:58 am)ChadWooters Wrote: And you must be ready to receive said revelation.. Though that does not seem to apply to the Saul to Paul type of conversion.

I think God gives everyone their appointed times. He knows exactly where we're at and when the best time is to open the door, and what the things are that we need to get us to that point. He didn't choose to reveal practically anything to me until I was in my late 20s. Why that is, I couldn't say, beyond that I would the experience that I do so I can relate to those in the same position as I was.

(December 27, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Seriously? Pascal's Wager?

No wonder you're a believer if you use arguments as flawed as Pascal's Wager.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like that. I know many of you have probably struggled with this over a number of years. I also didn't invoke Pascals Wager as far as I know, because that involves conversion doesn't it? What I said had no risk was simply to pray and ask for the information.

(December 27, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: You act like none of us tried what you claim will get us answers.

Been there, done that.

Every single time I've told a Christian that I did try, I ALWAYS get the same responses, "you weren't sincere enough", "You didn't try long enough", "he did communicate with you, you just weren't ready to hear". etc, etc.

As soon as you can tell me how to differentiate between your claims and gullibility, let me know.

As soon as you can tell me how to differentiate between your claims that Jesus will answer me and the same claims made by many other religions regarding their gods, let me know.

If you asked whether Jesus is there, I believe He will show you that He is. If He hasn't already, He will at some point. It's impossible for us to differentiate between the claims of different religions unless God reveals Himself to us. You might even think you know God when you don't, as was my experience. What I believe is that God will give everyone a real chance to know Him, and this has been my experience.

(December 27, 2013 at 2:56 pm)Ksa Wrote: Why the Jews did not understand matters not, what matters is that they didn't understand and that Jesus came up with those twisted phrases trying to fit their understanding.

For the last part, Jesus was in the mind of God and before he was born, God appointed him prophet of the nations! You remember what God told Jeremiah? What did God tell Jeremiah? I KNEW YOU! Before you entered your mother's womb.

So Jesus was glorified in the mind of God, God is energy...ok check, we were all in the mind of God before being born. I was in the mind of God, you were in the mind of God, Jesus was in the mind of God, Hitler was in the mind of God. Before being born, everyone bound by the spirit of God were in the mind of God and after they were born they were? SONS of God.

Where's the problem?

Actually, God is Spirit. The problem is that you're ignoring all of the scriptures, and there are many, which say that Jesus preexisted the world, one of which we discussed in John 1:1. Whether you think he is the God or a God the fact is that it places Him before the beginning of creation. We also have scriptures which show Him to be the Creator:

Colossians 1

16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

So, your interpretation that Jesus was in the mind of God doesn't fit the testimony of scripture, or even in its own context.

(December 26, 2013 at 5:01 pm)agapelove Wrote: Would just like to add, I'm not a she but a he. I also see that a few people are saying that I was not a critical thinker prior to my belief in God. You're free to believe that, but as I pointed this out earlier, it is basically the no true scotsman fallacy. I understood why I believed what I believed, and I could articulate it rationally. There are testimonies of professors, scientists and philosophers converting from atheism to Christianity and they were not intellectually weak or ignorant of logic. So I don't think it's fair to simply dismiss me as being intellectually weak or ignorant of logic just because you think a belief in God is irrational. It's okay though if you do, it isn't going to hurt my feelings.

I don't doubt your intelligence. It's not a true Scotsman fallacy in this case because the surmise is based on you having not been raised in a religion, not on the basis that 'no true atheist can become a Christian'. Sometimes things are just wrong, no fallacy needed. I'll take your word on the critical thinking, with the following caveat.

I mean something pretty specific by 'critical thinking'. Familiarity with the more common logical fallacies (like appeal to authority or appeal to pity), willingness to seriously consider the possibility of being wrong, understanding that wanting something to be true has no bearing on whether it actually IS true, and the ability to entertain multiple hypotheses without adopting any of them; would be a reasonable summay of what I mean by the term.

A freethinker or rational skeptic is committed to follow evidence and reason where they lead and to avoid appealing to the authority of persons, dogma, or texts. On this particular discussion board, most of the atheists (and maybe one or two of the theists) can reasonably be described as freethinkers in that specific sense. It's a philosophical position, and if you don't share that position, please don't take it as an insult, and saying you're not a rational skeptic doesn't mean you're not a (fairly) rational person and saying you're not a freethinker doesn't mean you're neither free nor a thinker.

---

(December 26, 2013 at 10:03 pm)Severan Wrote: I don't think that there are as many Atheists converting to christianity as there are christians converting to Atheism. It must be because we have better arguments.

Anyhow, the only way I see an Atheist converting to christianity is if they become delusional. (Most christians are)

I can actually think of a couple of cases (one in the news and one online at another forum I frequent) of people with well-established credentials as skeptics who converted. In both cases the reasons were emotional: it 'felt right' and, probably no coincidence, they each had a very religious SO.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:29 pm)agapelove Wrote:

(December 27, 2013 at 5:46 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Numbers and signs. That has confirmation bias written all over it. So this convinced you that it wasn't just god, it was the god of the bible? That's it? Come on, the bible talks about thousands of things and the fact that you see a lot of 3s makes all of them true?

Well, I already believed in God at that point. That was why the signs were important, which is that I felt like God was telling me a very fundamental and important truth about Himself which I didn't understand until I read the bible. That didn't tell me the whole bible was true but that at least some of it was true, enough for me to convert and give Jesus a chance to show me who He is.

Well, if these signs happened after you have believed, they're inconsequential to your convertion and only feeds my confirmation bias theory. How did you go from there is a god to it is the christian god? May I ask which denomination you are?

Quote:

(December 27, 2013 at 5:46 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Let me tell you something, my grandparents are buddhists. Not the hippie type, the other type. And my grandfather had a dream where guanying (one of the ones they pray to) came and gave him lottery numbers. He bought the numbers and won.

The reason none of these are good enough evidence is because plenty of these things have happened to people of other religions which sucked them deeper into their religions. The obvious conclusion, and also the one that assumes the least, is that all of these are coincidences. You cannot conclude that all gods are real because that is not evidence of gods' existences, and that is assuming way too much. For those who conclude that, well that did not happen to me, therefore it's irrelevant to the my truth; they are just ignoring evidence and pretending that something like god's existence is a personal thing, it isn't, it should be a universal truth.

In the Christian perspective, it is not just God who gives signs to people. I received many lying signs which I thought were from God which led me to believe in my new age version of God. So, it's not that I believe that people who believe in other Gods are confused, but they are being actively deceived. That they have good reasons to believe what they believe (as far as they are aware).

That's the thing, the christian perspective is the biased perspective. You know that muslims believe the same thing right? They have a syaitan going around just like you guys have satan. If you ask me it's really just because every good book requires an arch enemy.

How do you know that these signs that you're getting aren't deceiving signs? What if the real deities are the ones my grandparents pray to? What if it is the muslim god? How do you know?

Quote:

(December 27, 2013 at 5:46 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Another question, if you don't mind. I understand how you were convinced of god's existence. What convinced you to worship him? I cannot really think of anything that can convince me to worship someone unless with the threat of hell

Something that seems universal among atheists is an awe and wonder at the grandeur, the majestic beauty of the cosmos. The complex unity of creation, from the macro to the micro, is so wonderful and mysterious, isn't it? I think this is where the spirituality of atheists most comes into play. Now, considering all of that, maybe you can see that I feel the same way about the Universe but that I attribute it to God. When I am in awe of the wonder of it all, I am in awe of Him. When I see the beauty of a flower, I see His heart. When I marvel at the animals, their good humor and innocence, their connection to the ecosystem, I see His joy and His genius. I could go on but I think you get the picture. I find it very easy to worship the God who created this Universe because the Creation itself testifies to how awesome He really is. That doesn't even begin to highlight what I feel about what Jesus has done for me.

I get the idea, but I still do not understand it. I don't think it's a big deal if einstein solves some grade 3 math problem. But I do hold great admiration for the scientists who have discovered so much that the rest of us think are impossible. Being omnipotent takes that away. It is not deserving of worship. It may be deserving of admiration, but worship is a whole other thing, which you haven't explained because what "Jesus has done for you" only warrants gratitude, not worship.

Quote:God said He is seeking those who will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. What that means is that you worship Him from your heart. You couldn't truly worship God out of fear, but it is right to have an awe and reverance and respect for Him. As you get to know God your heart will change because you will know His love, even in the greatest adversity, He is there.

Awe, reverence and respect I have for many human beings. It isn't worship. I wouldn't hold the same feelings for god, as I've explained earlier, if he is god, all this "creation" should be child's play.

As for not worshipping god out of fear, the bible says many times that you must have the fear of god. It says so over and over again. The fear has to be there, god wants it to be there.

As for god being there in the greatest adversity, what is he there for? To watch? Surely if god is there there shouldn't be adversity. I don't want to digress into the problem of evil. But I want to point out that you have no basis whatsoever in making that statement, you have not experienced the greatest adversity, or if you have, you have not experienced everyone's and there is no way for you to know if god is there.

(December 27, 2013 at 12:04 am)agapelove Wrote: I was an agnostic atheist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

"Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact"

If you're saying that isn't a true atheist, what is a true atheist?

That is a true atheist. But that's not what you were.

(December 26, 2013 at 10:47 pm)Strongbad Wrote: (side note: What about all those people on the lists that converted to Judaism or Islam? Did they just "interpret" their "experiences" incorrectly? Because as you now know from all of your "research", Christianity is the only true religion, right?)

Quote:I believe what Jesus said in John 14:6.

You mean you believe that followers of any other religion, and all non-religious folk, are doomed to hell? Because that is what the verse means.

Quote: Is it implausible to you that there is only one right way to do things? If you bought a plane ticket to Chicago, for instance, when you got to the airport would you board just any plane?

So you wanted a ticket to heaven, and Christianity Airways was the only airline that would take you there. This is "implausible" to me.

(December 26, 2013 at 10:47 pm)Strongbad Wrote: All anectdotal. All standard Christian apologetics. All bullshit.

Quote:Let me ask you this: If Jesus is the real deal, would you want to know? Would you be willing to step out on a limb and pray for that information? If not, why not?

Let me ask you this: If Mohamed is the real deal, wouldn't you want to know? Would you be willing to to step out on a limb and pray 5 times a day for that "information"?

Sheesh. If I had five bucks for every jackass that came on this forum claiming to be a "former atheist", I'd be a multi-millionaire by now. You "interpret" a few coincidences and fortuitous happenstance to be signs from God?! You think that because you stood at the Baskin-Robbins counter of religions and picked a flavor, you can smugly claim "victory" because you chose the right one? Go sing Amazing Grace somewhere else.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:37 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I don't doubt your intelligence. It's not a true Scotsman fallacy in this case because the surmise is based on you having not been raised in a religion, not on the basis that 'no true atheist can become a Christian'. Sometimes things are just wrong, no fallacy needed. I'll take your word on the critical thinking, with the following caveat.

I mean something pretty specific by 'critical thinking'. Familiarity with the more common logical fallacies (like appeal to authority or appeal to pity), willingness to seriously consider the possibility of being wrong, understanding that wanting something to be true has no bearing on whether it actually IS true, and the ability to entertain multiple hypotheses without adopting any of them; would be a reasonable summay of what I mean by the term.

A freethinker or rational skeptic is committed to follow evidence and reason where they lead and to avoid appealing to the authority of persons, dogma, or texts. On this particular discussion board, most of the atheists (and maybe one or two of the theists) can reasonably be described as freethinkers in that specific sense. It's a philosophical position, and if you don't share that position, please don't take it as an insult, and saying you're not a rational skeptic doesn't mean you're not a (fairly) rational person and saying you're not a freethinker doesn't mean you're neither free nor a thinker.

I appreciate the benefit of the doubt, and thank you for the clarification. I think I understand what you are saying. I was heavily into philosophy before I converted, in fact in later years of my journey I would debate Christians on their philosophical predispositions. So, I do know about logical fallacies, and actually, I do consider all of the shortcoming as far empirical evidence goes with my faith. It's not so much about the evidence as it is about the relationship. I feel a personal connection to God and His very real presence in my life, and part of is the literally thousands and thousands of examples of His interaction and intervention and personal care. You could perhaps explain each one away individually but adding them all up there is a weight of evidence in favor of God. It's also because I have been born again and God has given me a completely new life.

I did consider many different possibilities, such as confirmation bias, or that I had something wrong with my brain, or even the idea that I was completely insane, but none of those were in any consistent with the reality I experienced. Insanity, as I have observed, is messy business but my life was becoming more well ordered and not disordered. I was gaining in character and virtue and not losing it. In the end, I don't mind being a fool for Christ. I understand everyone here thinks I am crazy, and that's okay; I love you anyway.

Nothing wrong with your brain, it seems to be in a fairly normal mode of operation. I think some of your interlocutors have been hanging out with the same type of atheist for so long that they think atheism is a synonym for scientific skeptic, but I've met atheists who believe in astrology, reincarnation, moon landing hoaxes, ESP, and so on. The only thing all atheists have in common is not believing in any God or god.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:29 pm)agapelove Wrote: Colossians 1

16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

So, your interpretation that Jesus was in the mind of God doesn't fit the testimony of scripture, or even in its own context.

Energy is spirit. I mean to say it's not matter. Brother, if you quote Colossians 1 I will quote Ezekiel chapter 23...and start talking about donkey dicks, let's have an honest conversation instead: I care about what the MASTER said, Jesus, the prophet appointed to the nations by God, like Moses, like Jeremiah. What the Jews said it matters to me not, WHY? Because Jesus calls the Jews all kind of names, you wicked and adulterous generation, you fools...you SNAKES! So if I love Jesus I don't read what the Jews say because the Jews dissapointed the MASTER, I hear what the MASTER has to say.

Do you remember when Jesus told the Jews that he knew Abraham? Then the Jews went MAD saying how come you knew Abraham since you were not born before Abraham died? And Jesus again tells them, you're idiots! Before Abraham was, I AM! Meaning I was in the mind of God, I was with God, like Moses was with God, like agapelove from atheistforums was with God. So Jesus tells them, why are you so unreasonable to tell me I did not know Abraham just because he was born before me? God tells Jeremiah I KNEW YOU, before you entered your mother's womb.

And AGAIN the Jews misunderstood him! AGAIN! I AM was an expression used by God to say, I am whatever I am, not your business, just go do what I asked you to do. Imagine your boss walks into your office but you never saw him before so you ask him who are you? And your boss pissed off he tells you, I am whoever I am, not your business, take this box here and put it up there.

So Jesus said, it's not your business that I wasn't born before Abraham died, I am whatever I am I was in the mind of God in the form of energy and KNEW Abraham. And AGAIN they misunderstand him and pick up the stones to stone him! And you read what those Jews said about Jesus, Jews who couldn't hack onto his message!

You want me to read what the Jews said and believe like the Jews? I will not do that, I love Jesus I care about what Jesus said. That he was not God. What a jerk-off Jew says about Jesus, I couldn't care less, the Jews HATED Jesus and made all kinds of allegations against him, including that he pretended to be God. And Jesus told them YEE, ARE GODS. If God calls you Gods, the people onto whom the message of God came, then the prophets are called Gods in our language! The devil is the God of this world, and Moses was God onto pharaoh, and the Jews are all Gods.

So why would the Jews come find fault with Jesus when Jesus tells them he's the SON of God, when others are called GODS. The Bible has got sons by the TONS. Adam was son of God, Moses was son of God, anybody bound by the spirit of God was son of God. The Jews were looking for trouble! And when you're looking for trouble you don't have to go very far, you find it around the corner!

WHAT MAKES THIS MAN GOD? I want you to tell me you know, this puny little child who made his mother impure for 40 days and was circumcised when he was 8 days old, that he's Jehovah, that he's Allah, that he's God! A man who had a good appetite for food and wine. A man who had FOOD. Haven't we made our signs clear to you? That they both had FOOD. The implications of eating FOOD.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:52 pm)Strongbad Wrote: That is a true atheist. But that's not what you were.

How do you know and what is the evidence for your belief that I was not an agnostic atheist, and please explain how your answer does not invoke the no true scotsman fallacy.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:52 pm)Strongbad Wrote: You mean you believe that followers of any other religion, and all non-religious folk, are doomed to hell? Because that is what the verse means.

So you wanted a ticket to heaven, and Christianity Airways was the only airline that would take you there. This is "implausible" to me.

Jesus repeatedly warned everyone about hell for a reason. I do believe what He said, and it also makes logical sense to me. We don't say there are multiple acceptable answers for who was president of the United States in 1982, do we? It's a fact it was Ronald Reagan. So why do you think there would be multiple acceptable answers for who God is? Jesus said, He was there to reveal who God is and I believe what He said was true. He said there is one answer and I believe He is right. You can believe He is wrong, but I don't see why you are incredulous that there could only be one answer.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:52 pm)Strongbad Wrote: Let me ask you this: If Mohamed is the real deal, wouldn't you want to know? Would you be willing to to step out on a limb and pray 5 times a day for that "information"?

I would, perhaps, if I was still searching. I don't find the testimony of Mohammed plausible for the same reason I don't find the testimony of Joseph Smith plausible. Just about anyone can say they are a prophet but only Jesus rose from the dead according to the scripture.

(December 27, 2013 at 3:52 pm)Strongbad Wrote: Sheesh. If I had five bucks for every jackass that came on this forum claiming to be a "former atheist", I'd be a multi-millionaire by now. You "interpret" a few coincidences and fortuitous happenstance to be signs from God?! You think that because you stood at the Baskin-Robbins counter of religions and picked a flavor, you can smugly claim "victory" because you chose the right one? Go sing Amazing Grace somewhere else.

I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal about my being a former atheist. I don't see really what difference it makes to you whether I was a former atheist or a former hindu. I am not asking for any special treatment, but it is the true testimony of my life. I also don't think it's arrogant to believe you have the right answer. If you are searching you are looking for an answer, and when you find that answer you don't need to search anymore. Do you know there isn't an answer?

^ Brother, if you can produce a single unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus himself says "I am God", or where he says "worship me" and I'm ready to embrace Christianity.

P.S. Later! If you can show me tomorrow it's ok I embrace Christianity tomorrow. My head is on the guillotine!

Gotta go, will reply again tomorrow. Take care!