Given how many atheists are former christians, and many of those surely had lots of faith, I'd say that faith alone is not enough to keep everyone in the group. I was big into it when I was young too. At one point I spent parts of Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday at a church or bible study group. It's just that when I started learning things about the stories of the bible from sources outside the faith that I found it hard to believe anymore.

For some people it can really shake your faith when you learn that the story of Jesus is not unique. That hinduism is an older religion with a guy named Mithra who was also born of a virgin, taught with some followers, died, and came back three days later. Not to mention several other mythological people.

(January 10, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Given how many atheists are former christians, and many of those surely had lots of faith, I'd say that faith alone is not enough to keep everyone in the group. I was big into it when I was young too. At one point I spent parts of Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday at a church or bible study group. It's just that when I started learning things about the stories of the bible from sources outside the faith that I found it hard to believe anymore.

For some people it can really shake your faith when you learn that the story of Jesus is not unique. That hinduism is an older religion with a guy named Mithra who was also born of a virgin, taught with some followers, died, and came back three days later. Not to mention several other mythological people.

I was in the same position and learned about the same thing that got me out of Christianity

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(January 10, 2014 at 11:20 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 9, 2014 at 5:42 pm)xr34p3rx Wrote:

Ok Christians, i have a challenge for yall today!

If your god exists, cut your arm off and pray to him asking for a new arm

If it happens, send me a picture of before and after.

after all we have modern science to put it back on right? and if not, you have your god to heal you, isnt that right? What is there to lose?
[img]http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000739523/polls_ojsimpson_3811_745663_answer_4_xlarge.

You do know the difference between petition and prayer correct? Prayers always get a favoriable answer, petitions do not. Praying for a mirical is not actually praying it is a petition.

What's the difference?

He just said that the difference is when you're already a christian and ask Yahweh for something, it's prayer. When you're not a christian, and ask Yahweh for something, it's a petition. He's not obligated to give something to someone outside the faith, despite the bible saying he really wants everyone to believe in him, and usually when someone outside the faith is asking for someone, it's so they have some evidence that they should believe in him. Evidence in something being the only reason anyone should believe anything. Ever.

Quote:Everything else is considered petition.

Where does "jesus" talk about petitions?

(January 10, 2014 at 10:53 am)Chad32 Wrote: Yeah, the fact that there are so many denominations of christianity should be good evidence that no one has a personal relationship with Jesus.

Or it's made up

(January 10, 2014 at 12:09 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Wouldn't that just make it harder for people to join the group. Yahweh supposedly wants us all to come to him, but he's unwilling to actually do something for people outside the group to show he actually exists?

Jesus tells us the evidence of God is not found without, but with in. He said all we need is the faith of a mustard seed and we will be able to move and obsticals even mountains of doubt.

Quote:Taking people's word for it, being testimony about prayers or words in a book, is just not convincing unless you actually grew up with it as a child. And children can be convinced of pretty much anything if you keep repeating something often enough. Or if you're in some other vulnerable state, like being a drug/alcohol addict, or are going to die soon.

Actually everyone you just mentioned has something else in common given their situation or state. They all have access to that mustard seeds worth of faith.

Apart of what we are told to pray for in Luke 11 is the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that brings the proof the moves mountains of doubt. But, again only if you have enough faith to simply A/S/K as we have been told.

Remember u are talking to atheists.. we dont believe ur book... sorry.. if u believe that theres a god.. can u define it?.. remember not the attributes. . It, itself.

(January 10, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Given how many atheists are former christians, and many of those surely had lots of faith, I'd say that faith alone is not enough to keep everyone in the group.

Faith of a mustard seed is not faith for the sake of faith. it is Faith enough to follow the direction given us as per luke 11.

Quote: I was big into it when I was young too. At one point I spent parts of Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday at a church or bible study group. It's just that when I started learning things about the stories of the bible from sources outside the faith that I found it hard to believe anymore.

I have spent my last 20 years or so in church, and i know what you are talking about that is not faith, that is routine/habbit.

One of the things I am trying to do now is to help those in a routine see it and break it for the sake of biblical faith.

Quote:For some people it can really shake your faith when you learn that the story of Jesus is not unique. That hinduism is an older religion with a guy named Mithra who was also born of a virgin, taught with some followers, died, and came back three days later. Not to mention several other mythological people.

and it breaks the self righteousness of atheists when they find out the myths about 'Myth-ra' were just made up. Because early Christian sources are so well documented, it cannot be suggested that Christianity developed from Mithraism. Further, all of the Mithraic manuscripts that ascribe Christian-like beliefs/practices to Mithraism are dated to long after the rapid spread of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire. It is clear that the parallel tenets of Mithraism were sourced from Christianity and not vice versa.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Mithraism.ht...z2q1gRTJRV

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(January 10, 2014 at 2:05 pm)xr34p3rx Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Given how many atheists are former christians, and many of those surely had lots of faith, I'd say that faith alone is not enough to keep everyone in the group. I was big into it when I was young too. At one point I spent parts of Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday at a church or bible study group. It's just that when I started learning things about the stories of the bible from sources outside the faith that I found it hard to believe anymore.

For some people it can really shake your faith when you learn that the story of Jesus is not unique. That hinduism is an older religion with a guy named Mithra who was also born of a virgin, taught with some followers, died, and came back three days later. Not to mention several other mythological people.

I was in the same position and learned about the same thing that got me out of Christianity

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(January 10, 2014 at 11:20 am)Drich Wrote: You do know the difference between petition and prayer correct? Prayers always get a favoriable answer, petitions do not. Praying for a mirical is not actually praying it is a petition.

What's the difference?

has already been explained.

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(January 10, 2014 at 2:13 pm)Chad32 Wrote: He just said that the difference is when you're already a christian and ask Yahweh for something, it's prayer. When you're not a christian, and ask Yahweh for something, it's a petition. He's not obligated to give something to someone outside the faith, despite the bible saying he really wants everyone to believe in him, and usually when someone outside the faith is asking for someone, it's so they have some evidence that they should believe in him. Evidence in something being the only reason anyone should believe anything. Ever.

No. a Prayer is asking God to change you to fit his Will, everything else is a petition.

(Think of the Lord Prayer, all of it's elements helps one to serve God. petitions has God serving you.)

I know the story of Mythra is fake. Just like several other stories about someone being born a virgin and raising from the dead three days after they die. Early christian sources are not well documented. Paul didn't even start writing about Jesus until a decade or so after he died.

Going to church or youth group several days a week isn't just routine. No one made me go there. You keep wanting to redefine things that don't line up with your beliefs as something else. I left the faith, so it must have just been a routine or habit for me. It's not really prayer unless you already believe in the guy. It just sounds liek the no true scotsman's fallacy.

(January 10, 2014 at 2:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Everything else is considered petition.

Where does "jesus" talk about petitions?

Jesus out lines Prayer in Luke 11.

Here are 3 pages of Old and New testament examples where prayer and petition/supplication have been seperated.
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?sea...rtnumber=1

As such supplication/petition was common knoweledge/second nature. Therefore Jesus did not need to teach it then. Today we have blurred the lines and most people do not know the difference.

just incase you are looking to confuse yourself with splitting hairs:

the defination of supplication http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supplicate

The defination of petition:http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/petition

(January 10, 2014 at 11:46 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 10, 2014 at 11:24 am)Chad32 Wrote: You mean if you pray for something, and something good comes of it, it's prayer, but if nothing good happens, it's a petition? But both are made the same way. You're asking the invisible man to do something for you. This sounds like the no true scotsman's fallacy. It wasn't a true prayer unless something good happened.

no.

Prayer (per the only example of prayer we are given by Christ) is Acknoweledging God's power and authority, Asking God's will to rule our lives/for his want and will to come first, Asking for our basic needs, Asking for giveness of our sin if we can for give others, and to keep us from evil.

Everything else is considered petition.

Well. This is like determining what isa miracle and what is not. I tsa fallacy