The question that comes to mind is "what is morally correct" and why? What is the standard and why? If it is just societies' take on a matter, it would differ within a society and why would the majority (if that is the argument) be right?

To explain the issue on the bears etc, it is very plain from Scripture that God does not execute judgement immediately in all cases. Evidence of this is the fact that people rejecting Christ are still allowed the opportunity to turn to Him. In other cases (as with the bears ) it is done immediately. Plenty of examples in the Bible of that as well.

Inconsistent? It seems to me fairly obvious that if a person's actions are without motive, it may be regarded as inconsistent when seemingly similar "transgressions" receive different "treatment".

The question that is often asked by Christians is "Why me Lord" when bad things happen to them, and the "wicked" seems to prosper. This is where faith and acceptance of the Word comes in. The Bible teaches in Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Thus, just as a child trusts his father to do the right thing although it seems rather unfair at the time, the Christian who has placed his trust in God, trusts God to be true to his word.

(January 13, 2014 at 3:25 am)(╯°◊°）╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Omnipotence and omniscience makes necessity invalid. God can, literally, do anything he wants. If he wanted to be completely benevolent, he could be, and everything would still work precisely the way he wants it to.

What if He wanted to establish a realm that allows for happenstance/ act and consenquence play out unimpeeded, do you think He could maintain Omni benevolence without manupliating the inhabitance of that realm?

Quote: Your god has to make the conscious decision to be cruel and murderous, and the only logical explanation is a desire to see the results of such decisions.

What if He gave the inhabbitance of that realm the ablity to collectivly repersent His benevolence by giving them all of the materials needed to meet the needs of those who are in need, but rather than do that, the ones with the over abundance allowed 2/3 of the rest of the world to starve?

Quote:why?

Quote:If your god has omni-qualities, then happenstance never enters the equation. Everything, even the most unlikely events, happens strictly according to his plans.

Including happenstance if He decided to include it.

Quote: After all, "the greater good" can be accomplished by any means when an omni-being is at work. Suffering cannot, by definition, be necessary given that. It is absolutely impossible.

Again your working on the assumption that God is in control/micro manages the things of this word, when in fact we have been told the oppsite. That 'we' have been given control of this world where we promptly handed it over to sin and the master of sin. That is why we are to pray 'His will be done.' Because it is not currently being done here.

Quote:Either God is not omnipotent and omniscient, and certain events are beyond his control, or he is and he either deliberately causes death and suffering intentionally or allows it to happen through neglect. There is literally no third option. You want your cake and eat it too, but you simply cannot.

If your dad gave you a car when you were 16 and said this car is completely your responsiablity (maintainance oil gas whatever else) and you never changed the oil, a year later the motor locks up, if your dad (or whomever) gave this car to you as a way to help you learn responsiablity, would he then fix the car for you or suffer the indiginity of walking/riding the bus to work for a while (to see you make an effort,) then MAYBE fill in the gaps you couldn't cover on your own?

The Atheist position is we are to have "free will" and still be convered under God's umbrella of protection.. when in fact we sold ourselves into sin as it's slave and currently serve that master taking us far away from God's protection. This is akin to us blowing the engine in our 'car.' We now are in a state of 'riding the bus' to show whether or not we will accept responsiablity for what we have done. Those who are shown to be responsiable will live under God's grace benevolence and mercy forever, but before we get there we must show we are willing to be responsiable for our actions or inactions.
And don't bore me with Plantinga's defense. It's amateur-hour horseshit a ten year old could pick apart.
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Quote:I don't see any outrage for the tyrant in N. Korea who fed his uncle, and his aides to 125 hungry dogs?

What would you have us do, oh great and powerful Oz?

(January 13, 2014 at 8:14 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I don't see any outrage for the tyrant in N. Korea who fed his uncle, and his aides to 125 hungry dogs?

What would you have us do, oh great and powerful Oz?

Call PETA? N. Koreans taste nasty. At least the babies anyway.

(January 13, 2014 at 11:50 am)Drich Wrote: What if He wanted to establish a realm that allows for happenstance/ act and consenquence play out unimpeeded, do you think He could maintain Omni benevolence without manupliating the inhabitance of that realm?

Allowing people to suffer and die at the whims of happenstance disaster, when it could all be avoided, is still cruel and neglectful.

Quote:What if He gave the inhabbitance of that realm the ablity to collectivly repersent His benevolence by giving them all of the materials needed to meet the needs of those who are in need, but rather than do that, the ones with the over abundance allowed 2/3 of the rest of the world to starve?

He gave those same people the nature which makes them act that way. We did not design ourselves, did we? That design choice was his, and he owns all of the responsibility for its results.

Quote:why?

Quote:Again your working on the assumption that God is in control/micro manages the things of this word, when in fact we have been told the oppsite. That 'we' have been given control of this world where we promptly handed it over to sin and the master of sin. That is why we are to pray 'His will be done.' Because it is not currently being done here.

God does not need to micromanage anything. He is simply standing back and allowing all of the evils and maladies of the world take place. Just as easily, he could have set things up so that no evils or maladies take place, with the same level of involvement as he has now, whatever it is.

Quote:If your dad gave you a car when you were 16 and said this car is completely your responsiablity (maintainance oil gas whatever else) and you never changed the oil, a year later the motor locks up, if your dad (or whomever) gave this car to you as a way to help you learn responsiablity, would he then fix the car for you or suffer the indiginity of walking/riding the bus to work for a while (to see you make an effort,) then MAYBE fill in the gaps you couldn't cover on your own?

Drich, haven't you learned by now not to try using your shitty analogies on me? They never represent the truth of the situation you're describing.

We do not live in a world that any individual can control beyond a very limited extent. We weren't given a car that will always stay completely operational if only we're responsible. We're given a car that will break down for reasons that have nothing to do with our level of responsibility. It can be destroyed by a falling tree or another driver losing control for reasons which may or may not be either driver's fault.

And all for what? To be taught responsibility? Why weren't we designed to be inherently responsible people?

Quote:The Atheist position is we are to have "free will" and still be convered under God's umbrella of protection.. when in fact we sold ourselves into sin as it's slave and currently serve that master taking us far away from God's protection. This is akin to us blowing the engine in our 'car.' We now are in a state of 'riding the bus' to show whether or not we will accept responsiablity for what we have done. Those who are shown to be responsiable will live under God's grace benevolence and mercy forever, but before we get there we must show we are willing to be responsiable for our actions or inactions.

We're riding the bus because God gave us a shitty car and designed us to be poor mechanics. And somehow, that's our fault rather than his.

(January 13, 2014 at 11:50 am)Drich Wrote: What if He wanted to establish a realm that allows for happenstance/ act and consenquence play out unimpeeded, do you think He could maintain Omni benevolence without manupliating the inhabitance of that realm?

That's what omnipotence means, yes. If he can't, then by definition he can't be omnipotent.

Incidentally, the world you're positing is one where god does impede in the world to begin with; remember, we're talking about a story where he not only has a prophet, but kills children with bears in defense of such. He already intervenes; what use is your argument now?

Pshhh. God is omnipotent first. With that superpower, he can go ahead and make himself omnibenevolent and omniscient to boot. Put it all together, and you have a paradox, but he's god, so he's allowed to be such, contradictory as it may seem.

To me this verse raised very big problems such as?

Why does it appear that God of the entire universe only looks after a select handful of people in each generation?
Why does it also appear that God would rather harm another of his created beings for the sake of the first one - Can he not 'Forgive Them'?
Why when Jesus died on the Cross did no one die Immediately by bears etc.. - Surely Gods on son would have constituted Gods Wrath?
What is Gods intrest in the Jews? It also appears that they keep turning their back on him despite existence of his presence?
Why even when the Jews turn their back on God he still continues to keep trying with them? Yet he ignores other creatures?

Why does God have it in for the Gentiles? He created them?!

(January 13, 2014 at 11:50 am)Drich Wrote: CIf your dad gave you a car when you were 16 and said this car is completely your responsiablity (maintainance oil gas whatever else) and you never changed the oil, a year later the motor locks up, if your dad (or whomever) gave this car to you as a way to help you learn responsiablity, would he then fix the car for you or suffer the indiginity of walking/riding the bus to work for a while (to see you make an effort,) then MAYBE fill in the gaps you couldn't cover on your own?

That would be the position of a parent who wanted to encourage responsibility and that the walking/riding the bus option was a temporary measure.

Your God, however, doesn't correct your behaviour (in not believing in him) he tortures you forever. he appears to behave nothing whatsoever like a loving parent

Quote:The Atheist position is we are to have "free will" and still be convered under God's umbrella of protection..

No our position is that there is no god at all and when we die we die. There is no umbrella of protection that we demand. Why is it that Idiot Christians seem to believe that, in reality, we believe in god but are just denying it?

Quote: when in fact we sold ourselves into sin as it's slave and currently serve that master taking us far away from God's protection. This is akin to us blowing the engine in our 'car.' We now are in a state of 'riding the bus' to show whether or not we will accept responsiablity for what we have done. Those who are shown to be responsiable will live under God's grace benevolence and mercy forever, but before we get there we must show we are willing to be responsiable for our actions or inactions.
And don't bore me with Plantinga's defense. It's amateur-hour horseshit a ten year old could pick apart.

Your god will forgive any atrocity committed against other people but he will never forgive non beleif in him.

(January 14, 2014 at 6:51 am)là bạn điên Wrote: Your god will forgive any atrocity committed against other people but he will never forgive non belief in him.

Wow, So enlightening! God doesn't care how many other people you fuck over, millions are just fine, he will reward you if you just say his magic jingle in the right way, but being skeptical and logical, "That's a burning in hell for all eternity!"

As a Human father, I am more sensitive to those who slight my daughters than I am for myself, because I love them so. God must be a pretty shitty person, he loves himself so much more than his children. And don't go on about the Jesus sacrifice thing, a god can't feel pain he doesn't want to and it was only for the weekend anyway..