(January 15, 2014 at 7:11 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Ideally God would like a voluntary relationship.

Christian salvation in a nutshell:

You can volunteer to allow me to have violent and degrading sex with you and I will grant you the gift of salvation from death despite the fact that you don't deserve it, or you can sinfully resist and, because of the selfish evil in your heart, refuse my offer to save you from having your throat cut. And it'll be your fault it happened.

Quote:Removed himself from the 4 dimensional time and space manifold according to William Lane Craig but whatever.

Perhaps he has a Fortress of Solitude at the North Pole?

Craig is a shit-slinger.

He's the personification of Dawkins' comment:

Quote:What has theology ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has theology ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? I have listened to theologians, read them, debated against them. I have never heard any of them ever say anything of the smallest use, anything that was not either platitudinously obvious or downright false. If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference? Even the bad achievements of scientists, the bombs, and sonar-guided whaling vessels work! The achievements of theologians don't do anything, don't affect anything, don't mean anything. What makes anyone think that "theology" is a subject at all?

Craig is a con artist shearing sheep who are too stupid to think for themselves.

(January 15, 2014 at 3:25 pm)truthBtold Wrote: Satan had free will and chose to rebel against god. Satan knew god, saw god, talked with god, and worked for god. He even made bets with god on torturing poor old Job! Why do christians say that if god showed himself people wouldnt have free will??

And a third of all the angels went with him. Satan was not unique, it appears, in rejecting God having met him.

So, yes, the free will argument for the non-appearance of God is bollocks.

(January 15, 2014 at 7:11 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Removed himself from the 4 dimensional time and space manifold according to William Lane Craig but whatever.

I love how WLC makes a living taking absurd claims and dressing them up in quasi-intellectual language like "removed himself from the four dimensional time and space manifold."

Simple folk are impressed by such tacky linguistic gymnastics, but I guess he wouldn't sound as authoritative by saying "he poofed himself away with magic."

Quote:I have CAPITALITIS No MEDS yet.. I made a funny!!

Maybe you should let other people tell you when things are funny.

Boru

(January 15, 2014 at 10:15 pm)(╯°◊°）╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: You can volunteer to allow me to have violent and degrading sex with you and I will grant you the gift of salvation from death despite the fact that you don't deserve it, or you can sinfully resist and, because of the selfish evil in your heart, refuse my offer to save you from having your throat cut. And it'll be your fault it happened.

If you're going to make a comparison of a relationship to God to sex would it help if you thought of God as a beautiful woman? God doesn't have a fixed physical form or gender and can be described in both ways. Though generally it's probably better to think of God as your other father/mother.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/feminine_god.htm

Some mystics have described the experience of God in vaguely erotic terms though so that kind of works, see the Song of Songs in the Bible. Also of course sex with voluntary consent would be rape which is something God would like to avoid, you have to be up for it.

(January 16, 2014 at 8:04 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: Also of course sex with voluntary consent would be rape which is something God would like to avoid, you have to be up for it.

You say that, but to complete the metaphor god would be like the rapist with a gun: sure, you could not have sex with him, but if you don't, he'll do something bad to you.

I wonder why it is that Christians refuse to relinquish the idea that their religion offers a free choice, when it so clearly doesn't?

(January 16, 2014 at 8:04 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: If you're going to make a comparison of a relationship to God to sex would it help if you thought of God as a beautiful woman? God doesn't have a fixed physical form or gender and can be described in both ways. Though generally it's probably better to think of God as your other father/mother.

Given that the comparison I made was of rape, the rapist's appreciation of my looks is really not much of a mitigating factor.

Quote:Some mystics have described the experience of God in vaguely erotic terms though so that kind of works, see the Song of Songs in the Bible. Also of course sex with voluntary consent would be rape which is something God would like to avoid, you have to be up for it.

It would not be what he would like to avoid. The whole point of the comparison to rape is the options made available by both God and the rapist: you can voluntarily submit to my will or you can suffer the consequences. Like the rapist, asking God to just leave you alone and not bother you is not a valid option. You either get heaven or you get hell. There's no third option. This reflects the Christian belief that the victim is to blame for what the rapist ultimately decides to do, because the rapist offers the victim a 'choice' and gives them 'free will' to make it.

Stockholm syndrome, a picture of Christ's relationship with believers?

(January 16, 2014 at 8:20 am)Esquilax Wrote: You say that, but to complete the metaphor god would be like the rapist with a gun: sure, you could not have sex with him, but if you don't, he'll do something bad to you.

Or you can think of it as a relationship with someone who loves you who will never let you down or break up with you and this relationship is two way and eternal. If you were to forever turn your back on this relationship this would result in suffering in question as you would be missing something you need, the power of love and that business.





But that's the better way to see it anyway. The God atheists seem to reject is the same God Christians would for the most part reject. Muslims may be accepting that kind God to some extent though or at least I get that impression from it.

Quote:I wonder why it is that Christians refuse to relinquish the idea that their religion offers a free choice, when it so clearly doesn't?

You have the choice of a relationship with God or you can refuse the invitation but God gives everyone the opportunity

(January 16, 2014 at 8:24 am)(╯°◊°）╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Given that the comparison I made was of rape, the rapist's appreciation of my looks is really not much of a mitigating factor.

The idea is if it's a consensual relationship then it's not rape. Atheists seem to want God to force himself upon them and give them an undeniable experience of his existence. I suppose you will get that when you die but before that point God is looking for a consenting relationship, therefore it has to be under your own free choice. Now it is possible for you currently to deny that he exists if you want to there isn't really any way to get around that if we don't have concrete objective proof. If there was such thing then you would be forced to worship God when you're not really interested in God or anything he has to offer.

Quote:It would not be what he would like to avoid. The whole point of the comparison to rape is the options made available by both God and the rapist: you can voluntarily submit to my will or you can suffer the consequences. Like the rapist, asking God to just leave you alone and not bother you is not a valid option. You either get heaven or you get hell. There's no third option. This reflects the Christian belief that the victim is to blame for what the rapist ultimately decides to do, because the rapist offers the victim a 'choice' and gives them 'free will' to make it.

Like I said he doesn't particularly want to rape you as he has a great deal of love for you.