(January 15, 2014 at 4:20 pm)StoryBook Wrote: So you don't fully believe the bible?

It's a book containing a revelation from God with some history in it not a book of history and science. You would call this form of revelation "special revelation" and then there is general or natural revelation, this would be what the ancient Greek ancient philosophers got up to. You can come to understand the existence of God without a special revelation though you wouldn't much about his nature or his relationship to his creatures without one. God could have spoken to people outside of the Biblical fold but Christianity is a true universal revelation of all humanity and it isn't culture specific. Islam is meant to be well though I think it's a deliberately manufactured copy by Mohammed and it is more of a culture/ethnic identity you need to adopt it doesn't mold itself around existing cultures.

(January 15, 2014 at 2:55 pm)StoryBook Wrote:

Quote:Anyway. Many writers makes sense as to why there are so MANY contradictions.

(January 15, 2014 at 10:07 am)Godschild Wrote: You see contradictions simply because you're looking for contradictions, I see no contradictions because I allow God to guide me through the Bible and see the truth. Most so called contradictions come from cherry picking through scripture. A person needs to compare the scriptures to find answers, when I see what seems to be a contradiction I search out, with God's guidance, other scriptures on the same subject to find the truth within the scriptures.

Its like you see god because you are looking for god...
I'm not looking for contradiction, I see them. Now I'm just starting to read the bible as a whole, start to finish(bet you're happy to hear that ) May take awhile because I am busy and it is boring...

I found God because He came to me and showed me who He is. Yes, I'm glad and hope you want give up on reading it. When you get into the begats it does get tedious, hang in there. What contradictions do you see, contradictions within the scriptures, or contradictions with today's science and archaeology.

Quote:Well in Genesis, it says that god made day and night BEFORE he made sun and stars. How is that? The sun makes it day.

As we understand how thing work, the rotation of the earth and the sun makes the day and night. If you noticed God created the light before He created the sun and other stars and He made the light separate from the darkness, just as day and night are, but in the end only God can explain what happened in those first days. As I said before it's God's creation, He can make it work to His will.

Quote:How is it that it says that god made animals then made humans. But then it gos to say the "lord" god made animal after humans because he didn't want us to be alone?

You've misunderstood the verses, God did create animals first and then man. You are confusing the word helpmate or helper with animals. You also need to understand that the first chapter of Genesis is a chronological order of creation, the second chapter is not, it includes the creation of the Garden of Eden and gives a few more details about the creation. The second chapter is more about why God created the Garden and why He created Eve.

Quote:How come god made both men and woman, at the same time. Then later women are created from the rib of a man?

As I said the first chapter of Genesis is a chronological order of creation and the second gives reasons and some details, and was never meant to be chronological.

Quote:It says we are created in GODs image, so in his image we should be perfect. You keep saying that we are not, because of our free will to sin. "In gods image" seems he knew we would sin.

God knew before He created man we would sin, yet He loved us enough to create us despite of what we would do, He also knew it would mean the sacrifice of His Son.
Being created in God's image is a spiritual reference. God is spirit so that eliminates any real physical comparison. God is a triune being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, so is man, we are a physical being, we have consciousness, that is we are aware of ourselves and we have a soul or spirit which is the part of man that can identify with God.
Man was created perfect, it was man's decision to give up that perfection to acquire forbidden knowledge, a knowledge man did not need to live in a perfect state with God.

Quote:Why does it go from God, to LORD God? Did the writers change and that's why the story is contradicted? How do you know what tale to believe?

You need to remember you are asking questions that only study can answer not just a read though of the Bible. Let's look at it in a simple way for now, before God created anything He was God, He was not Lord over Himself, after He created man he became Lord over man and His creation. When you see the word LORD in all caps it refers to His name Yahweh, which for the Jewish people is not to be spoken in reverence to God. When you start to understand the scriptures you will see there are no contradictions and thus they are not tales but the truth God wants us to know.

(January 15, 2014 at 10:07 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm telling you what God says, we will understand God's plan and why His justice reigns. God says we will not miss those lost to eternal punishment, God's plan is for those in heaven to be eternally happy and at peace. Now that you have me thinking about it, those going to eternal punishment will probably be allowed to miss those in heaven, part of the punishment. If missing loved ones is part of eternal punishment it can't be part of eternal life in heaven.

Why are people not to be sad? No, free will is what it is, a decision, though the decision can result in sadness or happiness.

Quote:I'm going to hell,as you think. So my family will miss me. They will know I will be punished for something as simple as not believing. They will probably prey for my forgiveness but it won't happen because god thinks I am hopeless. So there will be no happiness.
You really think that if one of your family members/or close friends goes to hell that you won't feel worried for them?
You sad people can't be sad in heaven, it is everlasting happiness and peace.

I do not know you're going to hell, I can't know the future.
In his life yes your family will miss you, just like I miss family and friends that have died, most I expect to see in heaven, some I have doubts about and some I'm pretty sure I'll never see them again. With their deaths their eternal destination is sealed, it does me no good to worry, but I'm sad for those who I have doubts about.
A person goes to eternal punishment for unforgiven sin, repentance is not possible without Christ in your life and with no repentance there will be no forgiveness. you can only have forgivness through a relationship with Christ. So as Adam and Eve made a decision against God and suffered the consequences, people can make a decision for God and reap the rewards. So the choice is your's, your finial destination belongs to you, God has laid down a plan, you can accept it or reject it.
Once again I'll explain, everyone in heaven will understand God's just actions and will not fill sad, they will support what God's plan accomplished.

---

Quote:After reading Eve "sinning" it seems like they didn't have free will till they ate the fruit and realized that they where naked. They gain knowledge and awareness, which seems like free will.

Choice is free will and they had the freedom to choose to disobey God or obey Him, they made a choice, a wrong one but nevertheless they chose.
As far as their nakedness, before they chose to sin they knew nothing of the evils that the knowledge would reveal they had obtained, they lived in innocence. Keep this in mind for a future question you will probably have about Paul and sin and grace.

Quote:They will learn of good and evil, which is a choice from free will. They were doing what they were told, God told them not to eat the tree, but the serpent told Eve it was ok too, so she did.
So did god create the serpent? Did he make it evil?

God did not create evil, that would be against all that God is, as for the serpent, it was probably just a way of referring to Lucifer after his fall. Let me ask you a question please, what reason would God have to make evil, He knew the price His Son would pay because of evil?

GC

Quote:It says we are created in GODs image, so in his image we should be perfect. You keep saying that we are not, because of our free will to sin. "In gods image" seems he knew we would sin.

(January 16, 2014 at 9:58 am)Godschild Wrote: God knew before He created man we would sin, yet He loved us enough to create us despite of what we would do, He also knew it would mean the sacrifice of His Son.
Being created in God's image is a spiritual reference. God is spirit so that eliminates any real physical comparison. God is a triune being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, so is man, we are a physical being, we have consciousness, that is we are aware of ourselves and we have a soul or spirit which is the part of man that can identify with God.
Man was created perfect, it was man's decision to give up that perfection to acquire forbidden knowledge, a knowledge man did not need to live in a perfect state with God.

So he KNEW we would sin? Why would he bother creating us to let us suffer? Why word he let so many generations/people suffer? That seems far from love. People would not exist so we would not know of god, or suffering. It seem rather pointless to create an eternal sinful species, don't you think?

Quote:You need to remember you are asking questions that only study can answer not just a read though of the Bible.

Why didn't god make a study book?

Quote:After reading Eve "sinning" it seems like they didn't have free will till they ate the fruit and realized that they where naked. They gain knowledge and awareness, which seems like free will.

Quote:Choice is free will and they had the freedom to choose to disobey God or obey Him, they made a choice, a wrong one but nevertheless they chose.
As far as their nakedness, before they chose to sin they knew nothing of the evils that the knowledge would reveal they had obtained, they lived in innocence. Keep this in mind for a future question you will probably have about Paul and sin and grace.

So they did not know of evil before hand. They did not know that they where disobeying gods word. This means they did NOT that they were being bad/evil/sinful.

Quote:They will learn of good and evil, which is a choice from free will. They were doing what they were told, God told them not to eat the tree, but the serpent told Eve it was ok too, so she did.
So did god create the serpent? Did he make it evil?

Quote:God did not create evil, that would be against all that God is, as for the serpent, it was probably just a way of referring to Lucifer after his fall. Let me ask you a question please, what reason would God have to make evil, He knew the price His Son would pay because of evil?

GC

Why would the all knowing god bother creating us knowing we would be evil? I'm not god, but it seems more like he got bored of peacefulness and decided to let lose sinful/evil human. Maybe he wants us to worship him because he got bored of simple minded animals that do what they want. Maybe he is not here anymore and went to another galaxy?

(January 16, 2014 at 10:55 am)StoryBook Wrote:

Quote:

---

It says we are created in GODs image, so in his image we should be perfect. You keep saying that we are not, because of our free will to sin. "In gods image" seems he knew we would sin.

---

[quote='Godschild' pid='584145' dateline='1389880699']

---

God knew before He created man we would sin, yet He loved us enough to create us despite of what we would do, He also knew it would mean the sacrifice of His Son.
Being created in God's image is a spiritual reference. God is spirit so that eliminates any real physical comparison. God is a triune being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, so is man, we are a physical being, we have consciousness, that is we are aware of ourselves and we have a soul or spirit which is the part of man that can identify with God.
Man was created perfect, it was man's decision to give up that perfection to acquire forbidden knowledge, a knowledge man did not need to live in a perfect state with God.

---

Quote:So he KNEW we would sin? Why would he bother creating us to let us suffer? Why word he let so many generations/people suffer? That seems far from love. People would not exist so we would not know of god, or suffering. It seem rather pointless to create an eternal sinful species, don't you think?

Yes He knew, he's omniscient. As I said He created us because He loved us before He created us, the suffering became our choice. Parents have children knowing that at times they will suffer during their lives, does that mean parents do not love their children? Why do you believe it's pointless for God to have created us?
God's creation was perfect, without flaw, man chose to love himself over God which corrupted the creation. Disobedience brings with it a responsibility to accept the consequences of that disobedience. If a people does not accept the consequences, they are rebelling against an authority that is higher than themselves.

GC Wrote:You need to remember you are asking questions that only study can answer not just a read though of the Bible.

Quote:Why didn't god make a study book?

He did, the next time you pick up your Bible consider it the study book, in school you have study books, you can choose to use them as a study book or you can just do a read through, the best choice is both.

Quote:After reading Eve "sinning" it seems like they didn't have free will till they ate the fruit and realized that they where naked. They gain knowledge and awareness, which seems like free will.

GC Wrote:Choice is free will and they had the freedom to choose to disobey God or obey Him, they made a choice, a wrong one but nevertheless they chose.
As far as their nakedness, before they chose to sin they knew nothing of the evils that the knowledge would reveal they had obtained, they lived in innocence. Keep this in mind for a future question you will probably have about Paul and sin and grace.

Quote:So they did not know of evil before hand. They did not know that they where disobeying gods word. This means they did NOT that they were being bad/evil/sinful.

When people understand there are consequences for certain behavior, they understand that chosen behavior is wrong. Adam and Eve both understood that there was consequences to eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To answer your question, no they did not know of evil.

Quote:They will learn of good and evil, which is a choice from free will. They were doing what they were told, God told them not to eat the tree, but the serpent told Eve it was ok too, so she did.
So did god create the serpent? Did he make it evil?

GC Wrote:God did not create evil, that would be against all that God is, as for the serpent, it was probably just a way of referring to Lucifer after his fall. Let me ask you a question please, what reason would God have to make evil, He knew the price His Son would pay because of evil?

GC

Quote:Why would the all knowing god bother creating us knowing we would be evil? I'm not god, but it seems more like he got bored of peacefulness and decided to let lose sinful/evil human. Maybe he wants us to worship him because he got bored of simple minded animals that do what they want. Maybe he is not here anymore and went to another galaxy?

I do not believe we are necessarily evil, people do evil things but is all sin evil, I do not believe so. I do believe all evil is sin.
I'm really confused as to why you would believe that God being pure love would create evil, especially knowing the cost to Himself. Why do you believe that God would create evil over other things if you think He was looking for entertainment, He could have done many things that would not have cost Him such a high price. Besides you need to rationalize how a being such as God could ever get bored, you are looking at God from a human's perspective and the only reason humans have to be bored is laziness, in my opinion, there are to many things in this world for us to do to get bored. God created man right after the animals, you are looking at evolution over creation and evolution does not fit into God's existence. God created man to have a relationship with him, you should have seen this reading the first few chapters of Genesis, you need to contemplate what you're reading in the Bible, don't just read it as you would a simple novel. Remember what I said, the Bible is a study book.
God created a universe and a galaxy is no bigger than a pinpoint in the universe, so God has gone nowhere, I experience Him daily and I grateful for His presence.
Talk with you again on Sunday or Monday have a great weekend.

GC

(January 17, 2014 at 9:51 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes He knew, he's omniscient. As I said He created us because He loved us before He created us, the suffering became our choice. Parents have children knowing that at times they will suffer during their lives, does that mean parents do not love their children? Why do you believe it's pointless for God to have created us?
God's creation was perfect, without flaw, man chose to love himself over God which corrupted the creation. Disobedience brings with it a responsibility to accept the consequences of that disobedience. If a people does not accept the consequences, they are rebelling against an authority that is higher than themselves.

Quote:I do not believe we are necessarily evil, people do evil things but is all sin evil, I do not believe so. I do believe all evil is sin.
I'm really confused as to why you would believe that God being pure love would create evil, especially knowing the cost to Himself. Why do you believe that God would create evil over other things if you think He was looking for entertainment, He could have done many things that would not have cost Him such a high price. Besides you need to rationalize how a being such as God could ever get bored, you are looking at God from a human's perspective and the only reason humans have to be bored is laziness, in my opinion, there are to many things in this world for us to do to get bored. God created man right after the animals, you are looking at evolution over creation and evolution does not fit into God's existence. God created man to have a relationship with him, you should have seen this reading the first few chapters of Genesis, you need to contemplate what you're reading in the Bible, don't just read it as you would a simple novel. Remember what I said, the Bible is a study book.
God created a universe and a galaxy is no bigger than a pinpoint in the universe, so God has gone nowhere, I experience Him daily and I grateful for His presence.
Talk with you again on Sunday or Monday have a great weekend.

GC

If god it all knowing he knew we would sin. He should of made it so we did not have the flaw of sin. He is the creator and even with free will he can do anything. He can manipulate free will to any way he wants. He created it. What is free will, really? Do you really know, or do you think you know. You can never be sure if its your choice or your god choice. You say you see him, but you could be deluded to think that it was you to chose to see him, or him making you see him(that is if he is not just your imagination).

GC Wrote:When people understand there are consequences for certain behavior, they understand that chosen behavior is wrong. Adam and Eve both understood that there was consequences to eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To answer your question, no they did not know of evil.

Right, they didn't know of evil until eating the fruit. So they would not understand that the punishment was bad, because they did not know of evil. They didn't understand that it was bad. They were like children, not understanding the consequence of their behavior. God told them not to do it so they didn't. Then the serpent said it was ok, so they did it. They didn't understand the consequence of doing what they were told. They did understand the punishment for being disobedient to god.

Just stop posting, storybook, all these people will do is make a bad attempt to extend the arguments that have already been proven false.

(January 20, 2014 at 3:44 pm)Severan Wrote: Just stop posting, storybook, all these people will do is make a bad attempt to extend the arguments that have already been proven false.

Yea, I can see that we just keep talking circles. I can only try. GC seems to not see the connections that I do

(January 20, 2014 at 11:58 am)StoryBook Wrote:

(January 17, 2014 at 9:51 am)Godschild Wrote: When people understand there are consequences for certain behavior, they understand that chosen behavior is wrong. Adam and Eve both understood that there was consequences to eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To answer your question, no they did not know of evil.

Right, they didn't know of evil until eating the fruit. So they would not understand that the punishment was bad, because they did not know of evil. They didn't understand that it was bad. They were like children, not understanding the consequence of their behavior. God told them not to do it so they didn't. Then the serpent said it was ok, so they did it. They didn't understand the consequence of doing what they were told. They did understand the punishment for being disobedient to god.

You are confusing evil with disobedience, do you consider a child evil when it disobeys a parent, I do not necessarily believe it is. The act of disobedience is what allowed the knowledge of evil to enter into human existence. So Adam and Eve were not being evil or even put in the position to be evil, they disobeyed the only commandment, law or whatever you want to call it God gave them to keep, nothing else was forbidden, why, because there was nothing else to forbid. The serpent (Lucifer) had already fallen to the self and he wanted man to be in the same boat with him. Lucifer was not trying to free man from God's commands, not at all, he was trying to enslave man in sin as he now found himself. Lucifer was sure that man would be placed above him if he could not tempt man into sin, what he didn't know, if he was successful in the end man would be above all the angels. The people who will live with God for eternity will be placed above the angels and they will serve man. If Lucifer had failed this would not be the case and man would have lived in complete harmony with God, never to suffer disease and death. However if man had eaten from the tree without Lucifer tempting, then we would be suffering his fate of destruction. Lucifer knew his end before he was cast from heaven and he wanted to hurt God in every way possible before his sentence was carried out. So, free will is as simple as it was explained in the first chapters of Genesis, you can follow God and have eternal life or follow Lucifer and suffer his fate. Your choice and your fate, all by your own decision, God actually made it simple for everyone to understand. Like Adam and Eve we all want to put ourselves before God, this just want work, I'm not saying you have to completely ignore your own interests, the Bible doesn't teach that.
As for your statement they didn't understand the punishment for disobedience was bad, Adam told Eve it meant death and Eve told Lucifer it meant death, so yes they did understand. Don't you think they would have asked God what death was if they did not understand?

GC

---

(January 20, 2014 at 4:34 pm)StoryBook Wrote:

(January 20, 2014 at 3:44 pm)Severan Wrote: Just stop posting, storybook, all these people will do is make a bad attempt to extend the arguments that have already been proven false.

Yea, I can see that we just keep talking circles. I can only try. GC seems to not see the connections that I do

Thanks Severan for showing us what the typical atheist is like. You want to deny StoryBook answers, you say blind yourself StoryBook before you make the wrong decision according to me, please do not think for yourself trust me I know better. Yep, a typical atheist who says Christians blind themselves, yet here you are trying to keep Storybook from free choice, from investigation. You and the other atheist here rage at Christians because you believe we have not investigated our beliefs, you have no idea at the lengths we might go to secure our beliefs, but you would deny StoryBook the right to investigate. You IMO are a self centered little person who's afraid StoryBook might decide to become a Christian, boy that would destroy your day. Again I thank you for showing the true colors of the atheist, hopefully others will see as well.

StoryBook I said before we can halt this at any time, if you think you're going to get me to change what I believe and you haven't studied the Bible much less read it, then you are barking up the wrong tree. Because I've studied scriptures I have been able to experience God outside of the Bible and when a person has reached this level of knowledge there's no turning back. So if you really believe this conversation has gone in circles and know now you can't change my mind, then what's the point of continuing on. Why would you believe that what God has done in my life can be changed by someone who doesn't even know the simplest things about scripture. The decision to continue or not is your's.

GC

(January 21, 2014 at 2:18 am)Godschild Wrote:

(January 20, 2014 at 11:58 am)StoryBook Wrote:

---

Right, they didn't know of evil until eating the fruit. So they would not understand that the punishment was bad, because they did not know of evil. They didn't understand that it was bad. They were like children, not understanding the consequence of their behavior. God told them not to do it so they didn't. Then the serpent said it was ok, so they did it. They didn't understand the consequence of doing what they were told. They did understand the punishment for being disobedient to god.

---

You are confusing evil with disobedience, do you consider a child evil when it disobeys a parent, I do not necessarily believe it is. The act of disobedience is what allowed the knowledge of evil to enter into human existence. So Adam and Eve were not being evil or even put in the position to be evil, they disobeyed the only commandment, law or whatever you want to call it God gave them to keep, nothing else was forbidden, why, because there was nothing else to forbid. The serpent (Lucifer) had already fallen to the self and he wanted man to be in the same boat with him. Lucifer was not trying to free man from God's commands, not at all, he was trying to enslave man in sin as he now found himself. Lucifer was sure that man would be placed above him if he could not tempt man into sin, what he didn't know, if he was successful in the end man would be above all the angels. The people who will live with God for eternity will be placed above the angels and they will serve man. If Lucifer had failed this would not be the case and man would have lived in complete harmony with God, never to suffer disease and death. However if man had eaten from the tree without Lucifer tempting, then we would be suffering his fate of destruction. Lucifer knew his end before he was cast from heaven and he wanted to hurt God in every way possible before his sentence was carried out. So, free will is as simple as it was explained in the first chapters of Genesis, you can follow God and have eternal life or follow Lucifer and suffer his fate. Your choice and your fate, all by your own decision, God actually made it simple for everyone to understand. Like Adam and Eve we all want to put ourselves before God, this just want work, I'm not saying you have to completely ignore your own interests, the Bible doesn't teach that.
As for your statement they didn't understand the punishment for disobedience was bad, Adam told Eve it meant death and Eve told Lucifer it meant death, so yes they did understand. Don't you think they would have asked God what death was if they did not understand?

Nope I am not confused

One more question. Where did Cain's wife come from? Did god have daughter or is it Cain's sister?

---

(January 20, 2014 at 4:34 pm)StoryBook Wrote: Yea, I can see that we just keep talking circles. I can only try. GC seems to not see the connections that I do

(January 21, 2014 at 2:18 am)Godschild Wrote: Thanks Severan for showing us what the typical atheist is like. You want to deny StoryBook answers, you say blind yourself StoryBook before you make the wrong decision according to me, please do not think for yourself trust me I know better. Yep, a typical atheist who says Christians blind themselves, yet here you are trying to keep Storybook from free choice, from investigation. You and the other atheist here rage at Christians because you believe we have not investigated our beliefs, you have no idea at the lengths we might go to secure our beliefs, but you would deny StoryBook the right to investigate. You IMO are a self centered little person who's afraid StoryBook might decide to become a Christian, boy that would destroy your day. Again I thank you for showing the true colors of the atheist, hopefully others will see as well.

StoryBook I said before we can halt this at any time, if you think you're going to get me to change what I believe and you haven't studied the Bible much less read it, then you are barking up the wrong tree. Because I've studied scriptures I have been able to experience God outside of the Bible and when a person has reached this level of knowledge there's no turning back. So if you really believe this conversation has gone in circles and know now you can't change my mind, then what's the point of continuing on. Why would you believe that what God has done in my life can be changed by someone who doesn't even know the simplest things about scripture. The decision to continue or not is your's.

GC

Not trying to convert you, just thinking. Logic can be hard for some people to understand. Not every one follow the bible the same way. Christian manipulate it to what they want to believe in it. Why are you fallowing the good, and only little on the bad that is in the bible? You only want to see the good. You are ignoring the bad.
A christian told me I was an atheist because I didn't go to church to worship god. There was a time that I did believe in god, but he never shown himself to me. Life has always been the same good and bad. You will never see the connections right there in front of you because you find comfort in worshiping in god and safe from hell. Your god didn't make the bible for everyone to understand. If he did it would only have one meaning. It also would not have been written by man kind. There would not be other gods, or creation stories.

Im an atheist and I realized that if you want to find answers in the bible, u need to believe on FAITH. The stories are crazy, and if u cant look past them then Christianity is not for u. Remember what christians say... If u go and seek god, u will find him. I find the whole thing to be man made but others dont. I respect their beliefs and hope that they respect my decision not to believe.