I don't think they did what they did because their atheism drove them to do it, though.

(January 18, 2014 at 3:30 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I don't think they did what they did because their atheism drove them to do it, though.

It factored in a little bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_p...st_Romania

You could say Communism was the fruit of 19th century atheism/materialism philosophical thinking. If there is no God and there no heaven and man is only answerable to man then why not attempt to create a heaven on Earth? The end result was more of a hell though.

I'm sure that banning religion or something like that could be brought on by atheism, as well as just noticing the kind of things that religious extremism do. It's just that atheism doesn't have a book that tells them to kill people that disagree with them. Most atheists that go on mass murder sprees are not going to say that the spirit of atheism commanded them to do it.

(January 18, 2014 at 3:59 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(January 18, 2014 at 3:30 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I don't think they did what they did because their atheism drove them to do it, though.

It factored in a little bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_p...st_Romania

You could say Communism was the fruit of 19th century atheism/materialism philosophical thinking. If there is no God and there no heaven and man is only answerable to man then why not attempt to create a heaven on Earth? The end result was more of a hell though.

Totalitarianism always becomes a religion. In Triumph of the Will (which I have watched BTW) Hitler says that national socialism must become a religious movement. He also says the the Nazi party's orders come directly from god. Stalinism is the same thing. Stalinism is a religious movement, not an atheist movement.

---

Also Ceaușescu used the church to promote himself & forged a working relationship with the church. He was a de facto theocratic leader.

(January 18, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Chad32 Wrote: It's just that atheism doesn't have a book that tells them to kill people that disagree with them.

Who has a book that says that? I don't think even the Quran says anything like that. It does say non-Muslims have to submit themselves to Islamic rule and pay a tax.

Quote: Most atheists that go on mass murder sprees are not going to say that the spirit of atheism commanded them to do it.

They can just say what they're doing is right because of the authority they gave themselves to do it. Hitler decided he didn't like the Jews, whatever Hitler says is true morality, therefore kill all the Jews.

Christians do. Jews do. I've read the bible, so I'm quite certain that death is meant to be a common response to people who don't convert quickly enough.

Individuals can't say things like that, but the atheists in general are not commanded by anyone with authority over them to kill religious people or burn in eternal agony.

If someone here wants to say that Islam is (or is supposed to be) a religion of peace, they don't need to be complaining to us when we doubt them. They need to be upset with their fellow Muslims who have been far less than peaceful with their execution of said religion.

Personally, I've always said the same thing about Christianity as I do Islam: the holy book is so self contradictory and convulted that you can use it to turn your religion into a religion of peace or you can use it to turn your religion into a religion of war. Do whichever suits your situation and you'll be just fine.

(January 18, 2014 at 4:47 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Christians do.

I don't Jesus said anything like that.

Quote: Jews do.

It doesn't say that in the Torah either. Quite the opposite if anything.

"So you, too, must show love to foreigners, for you yourselves were once foreigners in the land of Egypt." Deuteronomy 10:19

A foreigner wouldn't be a Jew of course. Any of the less pleasant versus you may like to find were over a tribal war over land, it was only the land they wanted not the people they going after. Once the people fled from the land there were no orders to chase and hunt them down.

Quote:I've read the bible

I don't think you really have.

Quote: so I'm quite certain that death is meant to be a common response to people who don't convert quickly enough.

You're making something up that isn't actually in there. Find the passages that say this and post them on here.

Quote:Individuals can't say things like that, but the atheists in general are not commanded by anyone with authority over them to kill religious people or burn in eternal agony.

So morality doesn't exist beyond the atheists own opinion of what they decide is moral and everyone's own opinion of morality is equally good?

You didn't read the part where Yahweh kills, or orders to kill, so many people for not following him? Or when Jesus said he comes not to bring peace, but a sword, to set families apart? Or to not suffer witches to live, and it's better to drown someone than let them lead you away from christ? Maybe you just picked up on the cozy parts. I know a lot of people do.

I'm not sure Yahweh would say that in Deuteronomy before he sends his people to slaughter villages and take the virgins for wives. I'm pretty sure Joshua chased some people around, and Yahweh somehow stopped the sun in the sky so that he could continue the chase.

Morals change over time. That's why ideas like slavery and genocide are illegal now, despite being encouraged by the bible. There is no infallible moral system, and the American judicial system knows this because we don't marry rape victims to their rapists or own human beings anymore.

No I didn't find the exact passages, but if you insist will look for them. The old testament was not a book about love and peace and tolerance to everyone on earth. You'd have to excuse a lot of mass murder to start thinking that. If they needed land, they should have been provided uninhabited land.

(January 18, 2014 at 5:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: You didn't read the part where Yahweh kills, or orders to kill, so many people for not following him?

No because it's not actually in there. If you mean Joshua it says kill everyone who was occupying the land at that specific point in time not people who weren't Jewish in general. Ok that's one the nastier bits of the Bible, Lane Craig had a go at tackling it if you're interested. He is a bit of a douche I find though.

Quote:Or when Jesus said he comes not to bring peace, but a sword

He meant that the revelation he would bring would divide people as he knew it would and it did.

Quote: Or to not suffer witches to live

You can take that to mean the genuinely evil ones. Yes there are some passages that are a bit unfortunate to the modern sensibility but that's to be expected. The Bible is inspired through God but written by people of an ancient culture. The overall message is a good message of tolerance and morality as Jews are as a people today. They still have the Torah as their Holy Book of course with the New Testament added on.

Quote: , and it's better to drown someone than let them lead you away from christ?

He literally mean you drown people who lead children into sin he was speaking metaphorically.

Quote: Maybe you just picked up on the cozy parts. I know a lot of people do.

I'm aware of the other parts but they have been reasonably well dealt with.

Quote:
I'm not sure Yahweh would say that in Deuteronomy before he sends his people to slaughter villages and take the virgins for wives.

They would have seen it as providing widowed women with a home and family or something. And they had the option to leave, after a certain while but there you go. I guess they would have had a period of time in order to see if they like it or not. We do have different values as modern people arguably better. I don't think they have become better "because of science" though. And I also think there is an objective standard or "Moral Law" that is not dependent on my own opinion you have the basis of morality in God. Something the Torah/Bible outlines.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure Joshua chased some people around, and Yahweh somehow stopped the sun in the sky so that he could continue the chase.

The sun/time stopped so they could win a battle and if anyone left the land the Jews were instructed to take they were perfectly safe as it was the people they wanted but their land, without anyone else on it just the Jews.

Quote:
Morals change over time.

They have got better over time because we have become collectively more Christlike. That is the ideal standard of morality which is also Gods standard which is in other different religions as well. If there is no standard then it's just opinion and there is no yardstick to measure morality against.

Quote:
why ideas like slavery and genocide are illegal now, despite being encouraged by the bible.

Because we were influenced as a society by the teachings of Christ. We don't exploit the poor we don't have lower and higher castes we're all equal. It took a while to fully sink in.

Quote:
There is no infallible moral system

There is an ideal moral standard and that would be Christ standards. The standard we have come closer to emulating over time.

Quote:
No I didn't find the exact passages, but if you insist will look for them.

You'll be looking for a long time.