One report has the number as high as 50%

This may seem high but it must be noted that a lot of people subscribe to a faith not because they are true believes but because they live in an environment where professing their lack of belief would be detrimental to their survival or well being.

I've also come across many jews, for example, who while maintaining that they are jewish and following the traditions of their faith, when pushed, admit that they don't actually believe in any form of god at all.

For example, what are most atheists to do in predominantly religious cultures such as Iran, Pakistan or certain bible bashing U.S. states? They would be far more likely to simple go along with the majority and blend in rather than stand up and say it's all crap! After all, in many of these places it would be a matter of life and death. This is just human nature.

When I was younger and worked for the parks dept I was talking to my colleague and just happened to mention that I didn't believe in God. His reaction was one of stunned incredulity and actually got quite angry and spent the rest of his time trying to get me to 'see sense'. Now, this was in the pretty secular part of the south of England. You can see that if I was in a more religious part of the world where being an atheist was frowned upon I might have just kept quite or even lied and said I was a Christian.

To me this is typical tribal behaviour and you could imagine the scenario where an atheist was to 'come out' and then be pilloried and abused by other members of the community, even by fellow closet atheists who are relieved that any suspicion has been diverted from them.

If this is the case as I believe it to be it therefore follows that there must be some tipping point where the number of open atheists and non believers are such that any closet atheists grow more and more in confidence about professing their own personal worldview without fear of ridicule and reprisals.

This is why the so called 'atheist movement' is so important as far from having the agenda to convert true believers from their faith it simply allows those who are trapped in a lie to live their lives openly and honestly and if it forces others who have been the victim of indoctrination, propaganda and irrational thinking to re-evaluate their philosophies then all the better.

I think for the sake of all religions too it's important people have a choice rather than feeling pressured to declare an interest where there is none. My own perception is of a world that has an overwhelming atheist majority of somewhere near 95%. It's rare to find a believer, and the media is full of religion bashing and promotion of disbelief. Not that this is a bad thing. The important thing is freedom to reason for yourself.

(March 5, 2010 at 9:24 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I think for the sake of all religions too it's important people have a choice rather than feeling pressured to declare an interest where there is none. My own perception is of a world that has an overwhelming atheist majority of somewhere near 95%. It's rare to find a believer, and the media is full of religion bashing and promotion of disbelief. Not that this is a bad thing. The important thing is freedom to reason for yourself.

Only 5% are real believers anyway. Who cares what statistics say?

(March 5, 2010 at 9:24 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I think for the sake of all religions too it's important people have a choice rather than feeling pressured to declare an interest where there is none. My own perception is of a world that has an overwhelming atheist majority of somewhere near 95%. It's rare to find a believer, and the media is full of religion bashing and promotion of disbelief. Not that this is a bad thing. The important thing is freedom to reason for yourself.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying you think the world is 95% atheist?

I think that's absurd.

I can buy 50%, but 95% is ridiculous

What he means is that only 5% conform to his personal view of theism and as he's right about everything to do with faith, it must therefore be so. :S

(March 5, 2010 at 11:20 am)Darwinian Wrote: What he means is that only 5% conform to his personal view of theism and as he's right about everything to do with faith, it must therefore be so. :S

Seeing as he has no data to back up his claim, I'll then make the claim that he's talking out of his ass. No true Scotsman fallacy strikes again.

A lot of people also have the default 'there is a god' position, and just leave it at that.
Paying lip service to belief but actually not acting as though there is a god.(which of course there isnt).

(March 5, 2010 at 12:34 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: A lot of people also have the default 'there is a god' position, and just leave it at that.
Paying lip service to belief but actually not acting as though there is a god.(which of course there isnt).

You would also have no way to prove that they don't believe something, unless they actually admitted to it. You can pay lip service and still hold a belief, albeit a weak one.

For those who believe there are true believers and false believers, how can you distinguish between the two?

Use specific examples, not "He has Jesus in his heart", as it's vague as all hell.

(March 5, 2010 at 11:18 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying you think the world is 95% atheist?

I think that's absurd.

I can buy 50%, but 95% is ridiculous

Yeah that's what it seems like to me . this is my experience living in the UK. I know it's very different in your environment.

I include the idiotic fringe that I still consider to be believers. I don't include nominal twats who just say they are as a default position.. that would amount to a huge amount right? you look at the influence on society here, and it's overwhelmingly non religious/ secular. You hardly ever hear of religious stuff going on. In fact I hear more atheist stuff.

I guess I'd revise those figures taking in the 3rd world. they have got to be almost completely 'observant' of some kind of 'spirituality'. The Indian continent must be religious to a vast degree. china.. I guess too.

(March 5, 2010 at 1:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(March 5, 2010 at 11:18 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying you think the world is 95% atheist?

I think that's absurd.

I can buy 50%, but 95% is ridiculous

Yeah that's what it seems like to me . this is my experience living in the UK. I know it's very different in your environment.

I include the idiotic fringe that I still consider to be believers. I don't include nominal twats who just say they are as a default position.. that would amount to a huge amount right? you look at the influence on society here, and it's overwhelmingly non religious/ secular. You hardly ever hear of religious stuff going on. In fact I hear more atheist stuff.

I guess I'd revise those figures taking in the 3rd world. they have got to be almost completely 'observant' of some kind of 'spirituality'. The Indian continent must be religious to a vast degree. china.. I guess too.

Nominal twats - just throw them under the bus, why don't ya?

I do consider Europe to be a cut above the rest in terms of religion, as many countries have large atheist and secular populations. I'd move to the UK in a heartbeat if it wasn't for that damned MOT and stupid traffic laws and taxes. I'm embarrased to say that America is the developed country with the most believers in a higher power, yet we embrace freedom of/from religion, so that is a huge saving grace.

What do you consider to be true belief? Being specific of course.