(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: you can't scientifically prove God as it has to be a faith based, there's nothing you can do about that.

Why?
It didn't have to be faith based for Abraham... nor Moses... nor the pharaoh... nor everyone else in the bible...
Only us, the people outside the story.

What's that awful smell?! BS

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Freewill

Do we even have it?

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: and moral arguments

Euthyphro dilemma

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Other arguments include the teleological argument which I find to be compelling as well, particularly if you realize that the universe is one great mathematical framework of precise balance. The cosmos itself and everything within it seems to wok together as a complete whole in bringing about the eventual fruition of life and intelligence so that's a strong point there.

No, not really. What about the 99.999% (probably a low estimate) of the universe that is immediately destructive to life makes you think that the universe works together as a complete whole for the purpose of life?

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: The message of the Bible particularly NT but also the OT if you look is essentially a God of the oppressed and poor which I believe to be on firm moral ground there, a lot of emphasis good works and charity and so forth.

The fact that it sounds nice to you does not make it more likely to be true.

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Christianity seems to be the religion with the fewest man made religious laws and customs and so forth which to my mind makes it the most legit of the claimed revelations. Jesus to me seems like a perfectly good embodiment of God and the good I see as being within humanity as a whole regardless of class, nationality and race.

Except that whole slavery thing, huh?

---

Ephesians 6:5-8
New International Version (NIV)
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

---

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Also I believe there is a subjective relational element regarding humanity and God that I experience and is possible for all humans to experience.

Would it be too much of a jump to assume you have no evidence for that?

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: A few other points include the reverence of the natural world as a creation of God rather than an evil illusion of the maya or whatever it is they tend to believe in the Eastern religions.

I'm not sure what you mean by "evil illusion of the maya" but you again run into the problem of assuming that because you like something, that makes it more likely to be true.

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: So I have all these reasons to believe in God in the Christian sense which as you can see outweigh your reasoning for atheism which states you have to scientifically prove something as a fact before you can believe it.

Or at least provide some unambiguous scientific evidence. You are claiming that there exists a being capable of effortlessly bending all of the physical laws of the universe to its whim; surely you do not think that you have actually proven such a thing, do you? This is a tremendous claim; personal feelings and dubious logic aren't going to demonstrate its truth.

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: ...for atheism which states you have to scientifically prove something as a fact before you can believe it.

I think you've set a world record for number of times being told what something is and then going on to say that that something is entirely different from what you've been told.

So, you're either really stupid, purposefully ignoring others, or a troll.

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(February 17, 2014 at 4:37 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Tell me, what would be the main piece of evidence that convinces you that god exists?

Freewill and moral arguments are what I would find to be one of the main points as I believe there will have to be source for that and you won't get this from natural physics and biology. Other arguments include the teleological argument which I find to be compelling as well, particularly if you realize that the universe is one great mathematical framework of precise balance. The cosmos itself and everything within it seems to wok together as a complete whole in bringing about the eventual fruition of life and intelligence so that's a strong point there. The message of the Bible particularly NT but also the OT if you look is essentially a God of the oppressed and poor which I believe to be on firm moral ground there, a lot of emphasis good works and charity and so forth. Christianity seems to be the religion with the fewest man made religious laws and customs and so forth which to my mind makes it the most legit of the claimed revelations. Jesus to me seems like a perfectly good embodiment of God and the good I see as being within humanity as a whole regardless of class, nationality and race.

Also I believe there is a subjective relational element regarding humanity and God that I experience and is possible for all humans to experience. A few other points include the reverence of the natural world as a creation of God rather than an evil illusion of the maya or whatever it is they tend to believe in the Eastern religions. You have physical scientifically understandable rational universe and a transcendent God beyond it who created and sustains it and his creatures. There's a lot of other stuff as well but these would cover the the core of it.

So I have all these reasons to believe in God in the Christian sense which as you can see outweigh your reasoning for atheism which states you have to scientifically prove something as a fact before you can believe it. We can be clear that you can't scientifically prove God as it has to be a faith based, there's nothing you can do about that. But as long as all the rational reasons, evidence and arguments are there then it's a reasoned faith which ought to overpower the skeptical position unless you're really seriously dead-set against it. At which point it may as well be a faith but one without much of a foundation. You say "I don't think that's true imo" and then that's kind of it.

I don't understand how every post can be this long, and contain nothing but circular drivel, ending with "as you can clearly see, that about wraps it up".

Do you understand what an argument is, what constitutes evidence, or do you simply write until you are satisfied no one will notice they contain neither?

*incoherent rambling*
Bald assertion
*incoherent rambling*
Bald assertion
*incoherent rambling*
Conclusion

This is not a valid argument format.

* Show it necessary for a supreme being to exist to have free will.

* Show that Christianity "has the fewest man-made religious laws"

* Show the "reverence of the natural world" is not characteristic of Eastern religions, and requires a creator.

* Show a reason for belief in God that outweighs Atheism, other than your own self-satisfied beliefs.

Why join a forum if all you're going to do is talk into a mirror and proclaim yourself victorious?

(February 16, 2014 at 4:44 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(February 15, 2014 at 11:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: ... Then the moment you find evidence of that, it'll be rational to accept it as true. That's why the conclusions of science are only ever tentative, but the scientific community equally won't bend over backwards for every ludicrous "what if?" scenario you cook up.

This. In spades.

Merely suggesting possible causes and explanations is only the first step of a very long and involved process of experimentation, fact-checking and correction. Sadly, all-too many amateur pulpit pundits are content to leave all the hard work to others better versed in the rigours of scientific method that they deride so much, yet depend upon for their very existence.

it's logically improper for dismissal of God's existence based on so-called God-of-the-gaps arguments since not all gaps will be filled (it's expected gaps to be filled, after all that's what science does). all things that exist are not scientifically verifiable; science is limited to empirical (based on observation and experiment) causal explanations.

(February 18, 2014 at 1:05 am)snowtracks Wrote: it's logically improper for dismissal of God's existence based on so-called God-of-the-gaps arguments since not all gaps will be filled (it's expected gaps to be filled, after all that's what science does). all things that exist are not scientifically verifiable; science is limited to empirical (based on observation and experiment) causal explanations.

We're not dismissing god based on the god of the gaps. We're dismissing god because there's no reason to believe there is one, no evidence that there is that isn't itself fallacious, and since you're admitting that god isn't scientifically verifiable, no rational reason to even consider the idea. All of that combines to point to the conclusion that there's simply nothing that points to a god beyond wishful thinking, and we need more than that to give the idea consideration.

You don't get to put your god beyond the realms of rational inquiry and testing, and then bitch about how unfair it is that we conclude that belief in him is therefore irrational.

(February 17, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(February 17, 2014 at 4:37 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Tell me, what would be the main piece of evidence that convinces you that god exists?

Freewill and moral arguments are what I would find to be one of the main points as I believe there will have to be source for that and you won't get this from natural physics and biology. Other arguments include the teleological argument which I find to be compelling as well, particularly if you realize that the universe is one great mathematical framework of precise balance. The cosmos itself and everything within it seems to wok together as a complete whole in bringing about the eventual fruition of life and intelligence so that's a strong point there. The message of the Bible particularly NT but also the OT if you look is essentially a God of the oppressed and poor which I believe to be on firm moral ground there, a lot of emphasis good works and charity and so forth. Christianity seems to be the religion with the fewest man made religious laws and customs and so forth which to my mind makes it the most legit of the claimed revelations. Jesus to me seems like a perfectly good embodiment of God and the good I see as being within humanity as a whole regardless of class, nationality and race.

Also I believe there is a subjective relational element regarding humanity and God that I experience and is possible for all humans to experience. A few other points include the reverence of the natural world as a creation of God rather than an evil illusion of the maya or whatever it is they tend to believe in the Eastern religions. You have physical scientifically understandable rational universe and a transcendent God beyond it who created and sustains it and his creatures. There's a lot of other stuff as well but these would cover the the core of it.

So I have all these reasons to believe in God in the Christian sense which as you can see outweigh your reasoning for atheism which states you have to scientifically prove something as a fact before you can believe it. We can be clear that you can't scientifically prove God as it has to be a faith based, there's nothing you can do about that. But as long as all the rational reasons, evidence and arguments are there then it's a reasoned faith which ought to overpower the skeptical position unless you're really seriously dead-set against it. At which point it may as well be a faith but one without much of a foundation. You say "I don't think that's true imo" and then that's kind of it.

I asked for evidence. The arguments from free will, morality and the teleological arguments are not evidence, they are just arguments. And the bible is not evidence either, it is yet another claim that Christians have been unable to provide evidence for.

Quote:Outside of that you have NDEs which I think are good evidence for conscious survival beyond the physical state as there is a good case to be made that the brain is entirely biologically non-functional while they are having this experience.

The fact that NDEs have this interesting tendency to reflect imagery of whatever religion is locally popular is an argument against the existence of your particular god, since he's supposed to be the only one there is.