I recently had a conversation with a Christian over the atrocious morality attributed to God in the Bible. He who told me: "Let me get something straight. I wouldn't kill anybody if I felt the inkling that maybe God wants me to kill them. That's crazy. If I literally saw God and he audibly spoke to me and proved it was him. I'd be crazy not to do what he said." While I commend his efforts as a Christian seeking to live consistently with biblical morality, I had to point out the sickening truth to this confused soul: "So you would murder someone if you thought god genuinely told you to? Well guess what? So do a LOT of people who ACTUALLY DO murder people because they think God told them."

Given that Christians don't actually believe murder is itself wrong (just read the Bible-we're all sinners deserving of death and God is entitled to instruct people to kill others) but only that whatever God tells them is wrong is actually wrong, my question is... Would you, like this other lost Christian, murder if you thought God was instructing you to do so? Would you be a "hero of faith," like Jephthah who murdered his own daughter out of commitment to the Lord? Or would you, as I have to believe I would, face God's wrath and stand up for the principle that human life is valuable and to be appreciated, and disobey God?

Remember that Christians do not see god as an angry and capricious being. When I was a believer I simply would not have been able to fathom the idea that god would ask me to kill without good reason, or even at all. If you had pointed to god's actions and demands in the past I would have done as any of the other Christians will do: shrug and point out that that all happened a long time ago and it's different now. And so on for any other objections.

I think that going to the extreme of "what if god asked you to kill/rape" makes it easy to forget the point that you are trying to make, which is that religion has the power to get people to suppress their moral/ethical center if they are convinced that an action is "good." Why go with something as extreme as murder or rape? There are lesser examples which are far more common and make the point just as clearly. Easy example: Jehovah's Witnesses are commanded to shun any former member of the faith, even if the person is a member of their immediate family. If that doesn't seem like such a bad thing, keep in mind that there are parents who have been turned away by their own children, and even denied any time with their grandchildren. Or that there are people whose spouses have grown cold and distant, making it clear where their loyalties lay.

Nor does it need to be codified to be effective, as a perusal of the intro forum will likely reveal. People who turn away from religion often experience persecution on many different levels, from direct loss of friendship or contact to being ostracized by family, or schoolmates, or co-workers. Why? Because they're convinced it's for your own good, or because they 'prefer god as a friend' or whatever other religious-based reasoning they use or conditioning they have. I think it was Hitchens or Harris who said that "religion poisons everything." You don't have to kill or rape in order to destroy precious things.

Tough question. The quick answer: No.

(February 25, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Given that Christians don't actually believe murder is itself wrong

Christians do believe murder is wrong. Capitol punishment is not.

(February 25, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: (just read the Bible-we're all sinners deserving of death and God is entitled to instruct people to kill others)

While Christians do believe that all people (ourselves included) believe that "the wages of sin is death," deserving the wrath of God is different than murdering someone. You are correct, there are times that God sends Isreal into war, even at times to slaughter whole peoples.

(February 25, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Would you, like this other lost Christian, murder if you thought God was instructing you to do so? Would you be a "hero of faith," like Jephthah who murdered his own daughter out of commitment to the Lord? Or would you, as I have to believe I would, face God's wrath and stand up for the principle that human life is valuable and to be appreciated, and disobey God?

If I "thought" God was instructing me to murder I wouldn't believe it was God's instructions. "In these last days God has spoken to us through His son..." I'm not aware of any scripture in the new testament where Jesus tells his followers to kill in his name.

(February 25, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Would you be a "hero of faith," like Jephthah who murdered his own daughter out of commitment to the Lord?

To be fair God didn't ask Jephthah to murder his daughter. Jephthah made a vow that he would sacrifice the first person he saw when returning from battle.

Think about what it must be like for God having sacrificed His own son on our behalf. A son who went willingly to his death. Who suffered and died for our transgressions.

(February 25, 2014 at 5:30 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Tough question. The quick answer: No.

For me it's not. I would never murder someone on account of some authority's demand.

Quote:Christians do believe murder is wrong. Capitol punishment is not.

Wrong. Christians believe disobedience to God is wrong. There is nothing wrong with murder if God instructs a person to do it. And capital punishment is murder if the crime is not a capital offense. Of course, in Christianity, all sins are capital offenses and everyone is born into sin. So the very fact that you are alive means you deserve to die, according to the Bible anyway.

Quote:While Christians do believe that all people (ourselves included) believe that "the wages of sin is death," deserving the wrath of God is different than murdering someone. You are correct, there are times that God sends Isreal into war, even at times to slaughter whole peoples.

Right, when God instructs murder, the wrong thing to do, according to Christians, is to disobey God. Hence, to them, murder is not wrong. It is disobedience to God that is wrong. If God says don't murder, then murdering is wrong. If God says to murder a child, then not murdering the child is wrong. Pretty fucked up moral system, I know.

Quote:If I "thought" God was instructing me to murder I wouldn't believe it was God's instructions. "In these last days God has spoken to us through His son..." I'm not aware of any scripture in the new testament where Jesus tells his followers to kill in his name.

You would not make the list of heroes of faith then. God told Abraham to murder his son. Abraham believed it was God. His faith was credited by the author of Hebrews. Countless other examples (where the murders actually were carried out) exist in the Bible.

Quote:To be fair God didn't ask Jephthah to murder his daughter. Jephthah made a vow that he would sacrifice the first person he saw when returning from battle.

True, but God didn't stop it either. By all accounts, God rewarded Jephthah for his obedience, which was murdering his daughter on account of a vow.

Quote:Think about what it must be like for God having sacrificed His own son on our behalf. A son who went willingly to his death. Who suffered and died for our transgressions.

Nobody died for me. If they did, they were seriously misinformed of the basic logic behind any sensible justice system.

Fortunately for most of us, the legal system doesn't accept "god told me to do it" as a defense. At best, you'll be declared insane an thrown in a psych ward, just for making threats or talking about your intent to commit crimes in the name of god.

(February 25, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Given that Christians don't actually believe murder is itself wrong (just read the Bible-we're all sinners deserving of death and God is entitled to instruct people to kill others) but only that whatever God tells them is wrong is actually wrong, my question is... Would you, like this other lost Christian, murder if you thought God was instructing you to do so? Would you be a "hero of faith," like Jephthah who murdered his own daughter out of commitment to the Lord? Or would you, as I have to believe I would, face God's wrath and stand up for the principle that human life is valuable and to be appreciated, and disobey God?

Christians believe all murder is wrong. Murder being unlawful/ unjust killing.
God telling you to kill someone wouldn't be telling you to murder. Murder would be telling you to do what opposes God. Taking life lawfully would be perfectly OK. You need to work out your confused understanding of the text.

Define taking life lawfully.

Let's say euthanasia.

(February 25, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: I recently had a conversation with a Christian over the atrocious morality attributed to God in the Bible. He who told me: "Let me get something straight. I wouldn't kill anybody if I felt the inkling that maybe God wants me to kill them. That's crazy. If I literally saw God and he audibly spoke to me and proved it was him. I'd be crazy not to do what he said." While I commend his efforts as a Christian seeking to live consistently with biblical morality, I had to point out the sickening truth to this confused soul: "So you would murder someone if you thought god genuinely told you to? Well guess what? So do a LOT of people who ACTUALLY DO murder people because they think God told them."

Given that Christians don't actually believe murder is itself wrong (just read the Bible-we're all sinners deserving of death and God is entitled to instruct people to kill others) but only that whatever God tells them is wrong is actually wrong, my question is... Would you, like this other lost Christian, murder if you thought God was instructing you to do so? Would you be a "hero of faith," like Jephthah who murdered his own daughter out of commitment to the Lord? Or would you, as I have to believe I would, face God's wrath and stand up for the principle that human life is valuable and to be appreciated, and disobey God?

People kill people all the time because some guy tells them to do it. So it's only natural that a person who believes in a supernatural deity would kill as many people as his deity told him to kill.

It's our nature to want to kill other people. Using a deity as a reason is simply an excuse that lessens the guilty.

(February 25, 2014 at 6:43 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Christians believe all murder is wrong. Murder being unlawful/ unjust killing.
God telling you to kill someone wouldn't be telling you to murder. Murder would be telling you to do what opposes God. Taking life lawfully would be perfectly OK. You need to work out your confused understanding of the text.

I'd like an explanation for your claim that killing children is justifiable.
Go.

If you can't justify it, you're confused over what the Bible actually says.

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(February 25, 2014 at 7:15 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: People kill people all the time because some guy tells them to do it. So it's only natural that a person who believes in a supernatural deity would kill as many people as his deity told him to kill.

It's our nature to want to kill other people. Using a deity as a reason is simply an excuse that lessens the guilty.

It's not my nature to want to kill other people. Perhaps it is the nature of brutes but the capacity to be rational is what separates those brutes from the rest of us.

(February 25, 2014 at 6:43 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Christians believe all murder is wrong. Murder being unlawful/ unjust killing.
God telling you to kill someone wouldn't be telling you to murder. Murder would be telling you to do what opposes God. Taking life lawfully would be perfectly OK. You need to work out your confused understanding of the text.

Ah, perfect example, right there. You're saying "murder," which you seem to define as "unlawful/unjust killing," is wrong, but killing because god told you to is ok.

So, again, let's look at how that works out in the real world, shall we?

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/13135/ma...l-hospital

This man, sincerely believed god talked to him and wanted him to kill the leaders of the LDS church. He also had a lot of other crazy beliefs that involved blowing up the state of Missouri and driving to Canada on a tractor. He got these beliefs, so he says, from god. To this day, he STILL believes he's the only person alive, on earth, who has actually talked to Jesus Christ, and he's been posting these kinds of crazy things on Google+ and Facebook.

Now, me, whenever someone claims to me that some unseen force wants them to do something, I tend to question things. In this case, he seems to be paranoid schizophrenic and the right medications could probably bring him back into the realm of 'not-quite-so-crazy.'

But if you believe in god, that change things. See, what if god actually did want him to do these things; how would you, or I, or anyone else, be able to prove otherwise? Would we ask god ourselves? How do you interprete the inevitable silence we're going to get as a response to our prayers? And maybe the best question yet, what is the practical difference between god actually talking to someone and a legitimate schizophrenic episode?

Prayer: It's how you make it acceptable to talk to yourself