(March 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think without the spiritual realm, value of ourselves and our concept of ourselves would be based on something that doesn't verify either of those concepts. At the very least, to find meaning, you have to find value in yourself. I find that we do have intuitive sense of value but when thought from perspective that spiritual doesn't exist, it seems it has no basis and is just fabricated in our minds.

Why does believing in a 'higher power' possibly creating the universe and its inhabitants, cause you to see yourself as having value and purpose? The spiritual ''realm'' is not based on reality, that is what has been 'fabricated' in our minds, to be honest.

(March 8, 2014 at 3:37 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(March 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think without the spiritual realm, value of ourselves and our concept of ourselves would be based on something that doesn't verify either of those concepts. At the very least, to find meaning, you have to find value in yourself. I find that we do have intuitive sense of value but when thought from perspective that spiritual doesn't exist, it seems it has no basis and is just fabricated in our minds.

Why does believing in a 'higher power' possibly creating the universe and its inhabitants, cause you to see yourself as having value and purpose? The spiritual ''realm'' is not based on reality, that is what has been 'fabricated' in our minds, to be honest.

Believing or not believing a higher power doesn't cause me to see myself as having value or purpose. We intuitively believe in value. What I'm saying is when I think about no spiritual reality behind our own existence, it seems the properties we assign to our own existence are fabrications that act as if there is a spiritual reality behind are own existence.

To me, it doesn't seem that our concept of ourselves is very accurate when there is no reality behind it but within our minds. It seems if it's whatever we believe in our minds, we simply are whatever we believe we are instead of what we actually are, or rather there is no actual are, rather just believe are.

And the reason I believe it is that way is because we are spiritual entities and value and goodness of ourselves are properties of an actual existing reality, not just some idea. That we are ourselves exist as real entities and not just a concept created by our brains. I believe this is reality and we can sense this reality, and when we separate the spiritual from ourselves and value, we can see it doesn't hold up, because of the nature we can know it actually is and must be.

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(March 8, 2014 at 3:31 pm)rasetsu Wrote:

(March 8, 2014 at 2:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: To me, it seems it does. It seems it's a false concept if it were the case that it had no metaphysical reality to it. That at the very least, our very selves have to be metaphysical that the qualities we attribute to it have some sort of reality, not just an idea. It seems to me the case the idea of it includes that there is an essence behind it, that the value of it, goodness of it, honour of it etc, are properties of some sort of reality, not just in our minds.

When it was conceded that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, that we were not the center of the universe, I'm sure some felt that made being human less than it had been when they believed humanity was at the center of the universe. Did it diminish us some from what we had thought? Perhaps. Perhaps our reasons for doing what we do no longer has cosmic significance. But does that mean it has no significance? Some adjustment of our thinking may be involved, but I think it is throwing the baby out with the bath water to suggest that it must be all or nothing. If our meaning doesn't have intrinsic, inherent existence, that doesn't mean it's completely false and worthless.

I'm not talking about how the requirement of having a purpose set by God to give us value. I'm talking about basically any value to ourselves and ourselves having a reality as opposed to being simply a concept within our minds. If it's a concept with no reality, to me, it seems to be a fabrication of the mind.

(March 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think without the spiritual realm, value of ourselves and our concept of ourselves would be based on something that doesn't verify* either of those concepts. At the very least, to find meaning, you have to find value in yourself. I find that we do have intuitive sense of value but when thought from perspective that spiritual doesn't exist, it seems it has no basis and is just fabricated in our minds.

*My bolding.

I don't think there are any guarantees regardless of what beliefs you adopt. You make your choices and then you reap your rewards and consequences. That's it, other than a little harumphing and pleading from those who would have it otherwise.

(March 8, 2014 at 3:54 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(March 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think without the spiritual realm, value of ourselves and our concept of ourselves would be based on something that doesn't verify either of those concepts. At the very least, to find meaning, you have to find value in yourself. I find that we do have intuitive sense of value but when thought from perspective that spiritual doesn't exist, it seems it has no basis and is just fabricated in our minds.

I don't think there are any guarantees regardless of what beliefs you adopt. You make your choices and then you reap your rewards and consequences. That's it, other than a little harumphing and pleading from those who would have it otherwise.

I think for what I keep talking about a sense of God, I can sympathize with Atheists not accepting it, because, God exists independently and previously from us. But when it comes to ourselves, I don't think Atheists can really say we can't be sure about some aspect of our nature. We can know what it means to love, desire, want justice, etc. We know these things because we feel them. We can also sense value and it being a spiritual reality. This is not hocus pocus talk. To me, this is very real, and it seems it's very hard to divorce the two. Also saying we can't know we have value for certain seems counter intuitive, and what seems to be the grand claim that requires evidence, as opposed to making the claim we do know we have value and making conclusions on that.

I see, that's an interesting idea of it.

I don't think we ''think ourselves'' as valuable, as much as how we affect other people's lives, using our lives. Altruism has been studied over the years, as stemming from evolution. A component of evolution, so to speak. I believe our value becomes contingent upon what we actually do with our lives. Let's pretend we both are spiritual and believe in the idea of a god existing. This doesn't automatically mean we will go forth and help humanity. I've met many religious people over the years, who go to church, pray, seem pious, but are bigots and racists. They are not adding much 'value' to society, if all they do is basically pay homage to a Deity, but turn their back on their fellow man. I'm generalizing, on purpose, fully aware that there are awesome people in the world, doing amazing things to bring about positive change, who are religious. But, my point is more that if a spiritual realm exists, and it requires belief in it to 'tap into the goodness of it,' that would be a falsehood, seeing that many religious people are not living their lives with purpose. Many religious people are depressed, lost, addicted to drugs, sex, porn, alcohol, etc. Just like those who are NOT religious, have similar vices.

At the end of the day, the quality of our lives are due to our choices. Due to human choices, and not that of a spiritual influence. Religious people will pass off all the good things happening in their lives as that of a spiritual influence, but really, they made good choices, and thus, they reaped what they sowed.

Our lives have value if we do something valuable with them, whether a god exists or not. Whether a spiritual realm exists or not.

(March 8, 2014 at 4:01 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: I see, that's an interesting idea of it.

I don't think we ''think ourselves'' as valuable, as much as how we affect other people's lives, using our lives. Altruism has been studied over the years, as stemming from evolution. A component of evolution, so to speak. I believe our value becomes contingent upon what we actually do with our lives. Let's pretend we both are spiritual and believe in the idea of a god existing. This doesn't automatically mean we will go forth and help humanity. I've met many religious people over the years, who go to church, pray, seem pious, but are bigots and racists. They are not adding much 'value' to society, if all they do is basically pay homage to a Deity, but turn their back on their fellow man. I'm generalizing, on purpose, fully aware that there are awesome people in the world, doing amazing things to bring about positive change, who are religious. But, my point is more that if a spiritual realm exists, and it requires belief in it to 'tap into the goodness of it,' that would be a falsehood, seeing that many religious people are not living their lives with purpose. Many religious people are depressed, lost, addicted to drugs, sex, porn, alcohol, etc. Just like those who are NOT religious, have similar vices.

At the end of the day, the quality of our lives are due to our choices. Due to human choices, and not that of a spiritual influence. Religious people will pass off all the good things happening in their lives as that of a spiritual influence, but really, they made good choices, and thus, they reaped what they sowed.

Our lives have value if we do something valuable with them, whether a god exists or not. Whether a spiritual realm exists or not.

Well I agree with what you said except I do believe we have value already but we increase or decrease based on how we act and except with our lives having actually value if God or spiritual realm exists or not. It's true Atheists can be better humans than people who are religious or spiritual but it doesn't prove your last two lines.

(March 8, 2014 at 4:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 8, 2014 at 4:01 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: I see, that's an interesting idea of it.

I don't think we ''think ourselves'' as valuable, as much as how we affect other people's lives, using our lives. Altruism has been studied over the years, as stemming from evolution. A component of evolution, so to speak. I believe our value becomes contingent upon what we actually do with our lives. Let's pretend we both are spiritual and believe in the idea of a god existing. This doesn't automatically mean we will go forth and help humanity. I've met many religious people over the years, who go to church, pray, seem pious, but are bigots and racists. They are not adding much 'value' to society, if all they do is basically pay homage to a Deity, but turn their back on their fellow man. I'm generalizing, on purpose, fully aware that there are awesome people in the world, doing amazing things to bring about positive change, who are religious. But, my point is more that if a spiritual realm exists, and it requires belief in it to 'tap into the goodness of it,' that would be a falsehood, seeing that many religious people are not living their lives with purpose. Many religious people are depressed, lost, addicted to drugs, sex, porn, alcohol, etc. Just like those who are NOT religious, have similar vices.

At the end of the day, the quality of our lives are due to our choices. Due to human choices, and not that of a spiritual influence. Religious people will pass off all the good things happening in their lives as that of a spiritual influence, but really, they made good choices, and thus, they reaped what they sowed.

Our lives have value if we do something valuable with them, whether a god exists or not. Whether a spiritual realm exists or not.

Well I agree with what you said except I do believe we have value already but we increase or decrease based on how we act and except with our lives having actually value if God or spiritual realm exists or not. It's true Atheists can be better humans than people who are religious or spiritual but it doesn't prove your last two lines.

It actually does. lol Because if Atheists are capable of living positive, productive fulfilling healthy lives...that would be evidence that a spiritual realm is not necessary to do so. (since they don't believe that a spiritual realm exists)

Unless, you are inferring that whether we believe in a spiritual realm or not, there is one propelling our lives in some (positive) fashion? That we have value based on that? (if you affirm that, I would disagree)

(March 8, 2014 at 4:12 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(March 8, 2014 at 4:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well I agree with what you said except I do believe we have value already but we increase or decrease based on how we act and except with our lives having actually value if God or spiritual realm exists or not. It's true Atheists can be better humans than people who are religious or spiritual but it doesn't prove your last two lines.

It actually does. lol Because if Atheists are capable of living positive, productive fulfilling healthy lives...that would be evidence that a spiritual realm is not necessary to do so. (since they don't believe that a spiritual realm exists)

No, it's as you said, you don't need to believe in spiritual realm to tap in the realm, etc.... They will have spiritual value based on a spiritual realm whether they believe in the realm or don't. Their existence is still not just within their brains whether they acknowledge it or don't. What they believe doesn't change reality.

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(March 8, 2014 at 4:12 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Unless, you are inferring that whether we believe in a spiritual realm or not, there is one propelling our lives in some (positive) fashion? That we have value based on that? (if you affirm that, I would disagree)

Eh just read that now. Think I answered already.

(March 8, 2014 at 4:15 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 8, 2014 at 4:12 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: It actually does. lol Because if Atheists are capable of living positive, productive fulfilling healthy lives...that would be evidence that a spiritual realm is not necessary to do so. (since they don't believe that a spiritual realm exists)

No, it's as you said, you don't need to believe in spiritual realm to tap in the realm, etc.... They will have spiritual value based on a spiritual realm whether they believe in the realm or don't. Their existence is still not just within their brains whether they acknowledge it or don't. What they believe doesn't change reality.

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(March 8, 2014 at 4:12 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Unless, you are inferring that whether we believe in a spiritual realm or not, there is one propelling our lives in some (positive) fashion? That we have value based on that? (if you affirm that, I would disagree)

Eh just read that now. Think I answered already.

Despite you following a Deist approach to life, I find myself in closer agreement with you on these concepts, than people of different religious affiliations. You're pretty pragmatic for a Deist.

Well I don't know if I'm pragmatic or not, I simply am stating what I believe after reflection over the issue.