(March 15, 2014 at 11:55 am)Deidre32 Wrote: 'Agnostic theists" hmmmm lol
So, this is a person who does not know but who thinks he/she "might" know?

Too many labels. :p

No, it's a person who believes in god but doesn't claim to know whether one exists. The opposite of an agnostic atheist.

And this is why the term agnostic is next to useless, it tells us nothing of one's beliefs.

(March 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm)jesus_wept Wrote:

(March 15, 2014 at 11:55 am)Deidre32 Wrote: 'Agnostic theists" hmmmm lol
So, this is a person who does not know but who thinks he/she "might" know?

Too many labels. :p

No, it's a person who believes in god but doesn't claim to know whether one exists. The opposite of an agnostic atheist.

And this is why the term agnostic is next to useless, it tells us nothing of one's beliefs.

Yeah,then it just signals that you're not a fanatic. Still worthwile to say it sometimrs

(March 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm)jesus_wept Wrote: And this is why the term agnostic is next to useless, it tells us nothing of one's beliefs.

And why would anyone expect a word which has to do with knowledge to be informative of what one believes? Wrong question.

I am 100% certain that I harbor no beliefs whatsoever in gods. I am also 100% clear that I wouldn't know a god if I tripped on one since these are so poorly defined. So when asked if I know that a god does not exist, I'm going to answer that I am 100% certain that I don't have a fucking clue. It isn't always possible to know what you don't know, but in the case of gods I am 100% certain that I don't know anything about them including whether or not they exist. That makes me altogether agnostic as well thoroughly atheist. There is no contradiction.

(March 13, 2014 at 8:00 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Just wondering how you descibe Agnosticism if someone asks you of your 'beliefs?' (and you consider yourself Agnostic)

There is a solid definition for the term, but I only know two Agnostics in my offline life, and they describe what it means to them, a little differently than I do. I consider it to be that no one knows if there is a god or not, and I don't need to know. I'm not thirsting for knowledge to know, either way. I reject all past and present religions' notions of a god, as well.

Curious, how you define it for yourself?

I am a man who used to believe in a fundamental God.

I began to have doubts and stopped believing in a fundamental God and ended up hoping in a personal God.

I then became disillusioned and stopped believing in a God, but was willing to consider the possibility that SOMETHING OTHER was there.

Now, I rather consider that God is completely unknowable in this life and is highly improbable due to many facts.

I am 99.9% certain there is no God and consider religion to be a fallacy and a fraudulent abuse of the people. I have never discounted the possibility that I could be wrong, predicated upon the fact that my assumption is wholly unknowable and beyond proof, but I consider the possibility of God to be fundamentally at odd with reality itself.

(March 15, 2014 at 10:25 am)whateverist Wrote: Lol indeed. As a teacher I can vouch for how widespread the perception is for thinking IDK is a reasonable response. It rarely correlates with wisdom though.

I guess what I mean is when I don't know, or believe something one way or the other it would be unfair to say I know or lean either way. I think it's possible to be without knowledge of religion without having a belief either way. I'm rather slow to form my beliefs anymore since I found myself easily swayed by many religions in the past. I go slowly so I feel I can confidently say I don't know either way. I assume there could be others like me.

(March 15, 2014 at 10:25 am)whateverist Wrote: The only slack I can give you is if you think subconsciously or out of habit even though you don't literally believe in a beardy guy in the sky. Then okay, you may acknowledge that the beliefs you are running on still reflect your religious upbringing. That's honest. With time you might find you no longer have any stray theistic beliefs banging around in the basement.

Yeah, I'm still in that phase. I reject religion rationally, but I still find myself falling into habits of making deals with god when I'm in times of need, or calling in my head to god when I'm in trouble etc. Ie. I found myself praying to do well before my midterms, and just laughed at myself when I caught myself. I felt foolish. So right now I'm in a very confused position, and I'm still trying to condition myself away from those previous behaviours. I say I don't know because honestly I feel like I keep fluctuating back and forth even though I rationally believe there is no god, I keep finding myself going back because of feelings, or other emotional reasons. Again I assume there could be others in this position. If that makes sense? :/ lol.

but..I mean...I guess that means I don't believe and have a position so I don't know lol

(March 15, 2014 at 1:35 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(March 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm)jesus_wept Wrote: And this is why the term agnostic is next to useless, it tells us nothing of one's beliefs.

And why would anyone expect a word which has to do with knowledge to be informative of what one believes? Wrong question.
...
There is no contradiction.

I don't think JW said there was a contradiction. But often people use the term agnosticism to describe their beliefs. He's actually agreeing with you if anything. For instance I'm pretty sure on bigthink, when Neil Degrasse Tyson is asked about his beliefs, he says he is agnostic (maybe someone could find the video, I can't be arsed right now).

I thoroughly agree with jesus_wept though, that this is a kind of wimpy way of avoiding the question about beliefs.

(March 15, 2014 at 1:35 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(March 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm)jesus_wept Wrote: And this is why the term agnostic is next to useless, it tells us nothing of one's beliefs.

And why would anyone expect a word which has to do with knowledge to be informative of what one believes? Wrong question.

It's not the wrong question. Agnosticism is the wrong answer to whether you believe in god or not.

(March 15, 2014 at 1:35 pm)whateverist Wrote: I am 100% certain that I harbor no beliefs whatsoever in gods. I am also 100% clear that I wouldn't know a god if I tripped on one since these are so poorly defined. So when asked if I know that a god does not exist, I'm going to answer that I am 100% certain that I don't have a fucking clue. It isn't always possible to know what you don't know, but in the case of gods I am 100% certain that I don't know anything about them including whether or not they exist. That makes me altogether agnostic as well thoroughly atheist. There is no contradiction.

I didn't say there was a contradiction between atheism and agnosticism so I'm not sure what your point is. What I'm trying to say is that saying you're agnostic is practically meaningless because you can still believe in god, or not, and claim agnosticism.

I would describe myself as an agnostic atheist if pushed but generally just an atheist. mainly because I think the term agnostic is moot because nobody but the deluded can possibly claim to know for certain. Especially when we get to some of the more vague god concepts like deism.

(March 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm)jesus_wept Wrote:

(March 15, 2014 at 11:55 am)Deidre32 Wrote: 'Agnostic theists" hmmmm lol
So, this is a person who does not know but who thinks he/she "might" know?

Too many labels. :p

No, it's a person who believes in god but doesn't claim to know whether one exists. The opposite of an agnostic atheist.

And this is why the term agnostic is next to useless, it tells us nothing of one's beliefs.

Yes, I see that now.

(March 15, 2014 at 1:37 pm)Mr. Moncrieff Wrote:

(March 13, 2014 at 8:00 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: Just wondering how you descibe Agnosticism if someone asks you of your 'beliefs?' (and you consider yourself Agnostic)

There is a solid definition for the term, but I only know two Agnostics in my offline life, and they describe what it means to them, a little differently than I do. I consider it to be that no one knows if there is a god or not, and I don't need to know. I'm not thirsting for knowledge to know, either way. I reject all past and present religions' notions of a god, as well.

Curious, how you define it for yourself?

I am a man who used to believe in a fundamental God.

I began to have doubts and stopped believing in a fundamental God and ended up hoping in a personal God.

I then became disillusioned and stopped believing in a God, but was willing to consider the possibility that SOMETHING OTHER was there.

Now, I rather consider that God is completely unknowable in this life and is highly improbable due to many facts.

I am 99.9% certain there is no God and consider religion to be a fallacy and a fraudulent abuse of the people. I have never discounted the possibility that I could be wrong, predicated upon the fact that my assumption is wholly unknowable and beyond proof, but I consider the possibility of God to be fundamentally at odd with reality itself.

You couldn't have worded this any better. Very insightful, and spot on as to what I have been *believing* for a long time, and now *believe.*

APPRECIATE VERY MUCH EVERYONE'S THOUGHTS TO MY QUESTION!

(March 15, 2014 at 1:43 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(March 15, 2014 at 1:35 pm)whateverist Wrote: And why would anyone expect a word which has to do with knowledge to be informative of what one believes? Wrong question.
...
There is no contradiction.

I don't think JW said there was a contradiction. But often people use the term agnosticism to describe their beliefs. He's actually agreeing with you if anything. For instance I'm pretty sure on bigthink, when Neil Degrasse Tyson is asked about his beliefs, he says he is agnostic (maybe someone could find the video, I can't be arsed right now).

I thoroughly agree with jesus_wept though, that this is a kind of wimpy way of avoiding the question about beliefs.

Yeah, I think so too. May as well just say you prefer not to answer. I see now JW meant replying that you're agnostic in response to being asked whether you believe in gods is uninformative, and that's right of course.

On the other hand if someone asked not whether you believe in gods but rather what it is you believe about gods, then saying you're agnostic would be appropriate enough. Then saying you have no beliefs regarding gods would be informative. If you have no beliefs, then you have nothing to offer.

Some of us though have our pet theories regarding what the god phenomenon is about, myself included. So I would have an answer even though I'm also agnostic. But not every agnostic would necessarily be as interested in the subject as I am. That might be what's up with Tyson.

I am agnostic because I don't know if god exists or not. I call myself that so people don't assume I know for sure gods don't exist. It's easier that way.