(March 25, 2014 at 8:56 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Anyone who wants to debate the historicity of Noah's Ark is not worth the kJ of energy it takes to formulate a thought in order to tell them how stupid they are.

And then you tell them they owe you a kJ.

Much like the Iliad and the Odyssey - the Bible is a collection of religious MYTHS and Legends - made up largely by a group of illiterate cave dwellers and goat herders - and fishermen. REAL history has shown that most of these stories have NO historical basis - and are not even written as well as Aesop wrote his fables or even Mother Goose.

However - once you ACCEPT that these are simply fairy tales - there exists no reason why you would not accept that the HISTORICAL basis for these TALES - which were certainly based on tales of prior religions. They are no more "stupid" than most fictional movies and books written to this day.

So - yes - the story of Noah - and Adam and Eve - and the Christ - are no more real than Hercules or Isis and Osiris or Bugs Bunny or Mickey mouse - and Aesops fables. Some of these tales - if you look beyond obvious flaws -even present moral ideas that are worthwhile.

In fact - if YOU really thing about it - we generally place such fairy tales into the level of children's reading - and in ancient times - the average person was not as literate as a kindergarten child today - so "Stories" were used to make points that illiterate people would not otherwise understand.

Now as far as the particular story is concerned - we KNOW it did not happen - and we also know that it has an number of obvious flaws. Among them - the idea that ALL of the people except for Noah and family were bad - is alarming in many ways. Among them - the idea that god FAILED in producing a good group of humans - and of course - the fact that in those times - when the average age of death was about 25 - a large percentage of those who would have been killed would have been TOO young to have done anything for which they could have been personally responsible by death (Infants and young children)

A parent - when using the bible as an example of WHY it is myth - could obviously point that out to the children

(March 29, 2014 at 2:32 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(March 29, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Because there is a huge gulf between not impossible and reasonable.

Lets say the police turn up at my house. I'm dead on the floor with a caved in skull and my wife is standing with a blood splattered frying pan shouting "i'm glad I killed the bastard".

But later she says that someone came into our house, and clubbed me with the pan. She wrested it off him and hit him with it (quite gently). He ran off but she was sure he would die within moments. The police arrived and she thinks they are here because she hit the intruder. Thus she said "i'm glad I killed the bastard" in relation to HIM and was innocent of my murder.

You can't say for CERTAIN that she didn't kill me.

But you'd surely dispute anyone who believed that she was innocent!

That's a good start, but to truly reflect Huggy's argument here, we wouldn't just be disputing someone who believed your wife was innocent, but who believed that pirate gremlins came and caved in your skull. Because apparently, not knowing the answer to a question means that we can't identify blatantly impossible answers, or answers for which there is no evidence that agents within that argument even exist.

If you don't know the answer to a thing, you simply can't dispute the existence of pirate gremlins!

Not accurate. It would actually be a choice between pirate gremlins (religious version), or the skull spontaneously caving in by itself (scientific version).

(March 29, 2014 at 8:38 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(March 29, 2014 at 2:32 pm)Esquilax Wrote: That's a good start, but to truly reflect Huggy's argument here, we wouldn't just be disputing someone who believed your wife was innocent, but who believed that pirate gremlins came and caved in your skull. Because apparently, not knowing the answer to a question means that we can't identify blatantly impossible answers, or answers for which there is no evidence that agents within that argument even exist.

If you don't know the answer to a thing, you simply can't dispute the existence of pirate gremlins!

Not accurate. It would actually be a choice between pirate gremlins (religious version), or the skull spontaneously caving in by itself (scientific version).

Yet another cosmological argument supporter who fallaciously assumes causality observed within the existing universe applied pre causality before the universe existed.

At the quantum level causality doesn't seem to apply universally within the existing universe. But hey, whatever ridiculous unsupported assertions you want to throw out, I'm sure "a wizard must have been there to wave his magic wand" makes more sense.

(March 25, 2014 at 8:46 pm)heathendegenerate Wrote: i'm constantly told by christians how noah's ark is somehow a true story. Please point out everything you know that's retarded about it. i know a bit.. but i want you intellectuals to simply destroy the shit out of this. remember that you'll be breaking christian hearts. Please.

Well I beg of you as a mature human being to not develop or nurture within your self disdain in the form of "us vs. them" mentality. The point is not break their hearts or destroy them but to built up their courage to walk down the path of enlightenment and to grant them knowledge which assures them in doing so.

Noah's ark is inexorably a retelling of a portion of the Epic of Gilgamesh. I remember one of my history teacher's saying that Noah's ark did not surface until the year 500, not sure B.C or A.D. I have no proof of her words.

Christians love to argue that the story was stolen from the old testament by other religions, oh the arrogance...the general accepted postulate among historians is the opposite. You can easily shut them down upon making that claim with the good old...."prove it"

(March 29, 2014 at 3:15 pm)ThomM Wrote:

(March 25, 2014 at 8:56 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Anyone who wants to debate the historicity of Noah's Ark is not worth the kJ of energy it takes to formulate a thought in order to tell them how stupid they are.

And then you tell them they owe you a kJ.

Much like the Iliad and the Odyssey - the Bible is a collection of religious MYTHS and Legends - made up largely by a group of illiterate cave dwellers and goat herders - and fishermen. REAL history has shown that most of these stories have NO historical basis - and are not even written as well as Aesop wrote his fables or even Mother Goose.

However - once you ACCEPT that these are simply fairy tales - there exists no reason why you would not accept that the HISTORICAL basis for these TALES - which were certainly based on tales of prior religions. They are no more "stupid" than most fictional movies and books written to this day.

So - yes - the story of Noah - and Adam and Eve - and the Christ - are no more real than Hercules or Isis and Osiris or Bugs Bunny or Mickey mouse - and Aesops fables. Some of these tales - if you look beyond obvious flaws -even present moral ideas that are worthwhile.

In fact - if YOU really thing about it - we generally place such fairy tales into the level of children's reading - and in ancient times - the average person was not as literate as a kindergarten child today - so "Stories" were used to make points that illiterate people would not otherwise understand.

Now as far as the particular story is concerned - we KNOW it did not happen - and we also know that it has an number of obvious flaws. Among them - the idea that ALL of the people except for Noah and family were bad - is alarming in many ways. Among them - the idea that god FAILED in producing a good group of humans - and of course - the fact that in those times - when the average age of death was about 25 - a large percentage of those who would have been killed would have been TOO young to have done anything for which they could have been personally responsible by death (Infants and young children)

A parent - when using the bible as an example of WHY it is myth - could obviously point that out to the children

Those are some excellent points. If you, as a survivor, wanted to pass along to future generations of how you made it through a disaster that killed countless people, how would you do it? You would make up a story to explain it. The story would have to be fairly simple but entertaining so that people could easily remember it.

Consider the recent mudslide in Washington State that killed an unknown number of people. Create a story about it that explains why it happened and why it's foolish to build a house on a hill slope. Throw in a deity or demon.

Here's another one. Newt Gingrich thinks that solar flares could destroy the electrical grid and that up to 90% of humanity might die off as a result. Now suppose you survived such a disaster. How would you pass along a warning to future generations? You would make up a story. Throw in some angry gods and demons, wicked people, and an angry sun.
BTW, solar flares can cause real damage. The ones in 1859 fried the telegraph lines, which were about the only things that were electric at that time. So Newt has a point.

I think Noah's ark story was really about the Assyrians/Babylonians, or even Persians swarming through the Middle East killing everything in sight. The water is a metaphor for their military forces. The ark represents Noah's fortress.

(March 29, 2014 at 1:59 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:can you say with absolute certainty that there is no God?

I can say with absolute certainty that there is no evidence for your fucking god.

But there is evidence. Just because you refuse to see it, doesn't mean that its not there. How can a book with so many different scribes dove-tail and form a perfect overall picture. That would be akin to pieces of a blank jigsaw puzzle being handed out to different people and having them draw a picture and the puzzle coming together to form a perfect portrait.

I already explained the story of Joseph.



I already explained how the flood relates to the new earth.



But as it relates to the flood, Jesus gave an example of the eight people being saved in the ark as an example of what will happen in the end times.

Matthew 24:37-43
King James Version (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Notice, He is referring to the Jews because the gospel hadn't been given to the Gentiles (Christians). The Bible doesn't give specifics in relation to the Gentiles (Christians). However, it does give specifics in relation to the Jews. So, if we take what Jesus said about the eight people being saved and compare it to the end times by looking in the book of Revelations, we will see that the number of Jews that were saved numbered 144,000. That would be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

The 144,000 Jews in Revelations go through the tribulation period, but, are divinely sheltered, which is why Jesus made the comparison between the flood (tribulation period) and the eight people in the ark (144,000). However, that is only part of the picture because the "rapture" happens before the tribulation period, so, that would mean they would have to be an example of the rapture happening before the flood. As we can see by the story of Enoch disappearing off the face of the earth that there was an example of the rapture.

Genesis 5
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

In case you haven't noticed the numerology eight people were saved in the ark only one went in the rapture during the antediluvian time period. That is a ratio of eight to one. So, we know the number of Jews saved in the end time is 144,000 so if we take that same eight to one ratio that would mean the number of people taking up in the rapture would be about 18,000. In other words, if the rapture were to happen would anyone notice 18,000 people disappearing off the face of the planet?

So explain the bible dove-tailing together so perfectly, not being evidence.

R u soft ass baby shit.. really.. read ur fucking book. It a fairy tale with disgusting stories that bronze aged people thought of.

I have seen the film Noah and if the director had stated this story is mythological, then it would be a half decent fantasy film. However the director tried to state that this event was some how historical. I presume to please the Christian Fundamentalists, however there is plenty in the film that will upset them.

One of the things, I noticed in the film is that God intends to wipe out all of humanity, not just save a few. There is only one daughter in law who is on the ark in the film, who is presumed to be barren. God intends these people just to look after the animals in the ark and eventually die.

When Noah finds out his daughter in law is pregnant, God instructs Noah to kill either the daughter or the baby, when the baby is born. In the end Noah does not do it, the story is a retelling of the story of Abraham and Isaac in the book of Genesis. Where god instructs to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on the mountain as a way of testing Abraham's obedience to him. Only when Abraham is about to kill his son, god decides he does not want Isaac killed.

Also there is some stuff in the movie from the Book of Enoch, in particular the angels called The Watchers (who feature in the film) who help Noah build the Ark. While Christians (apart from the Ethiopian Orthodox) don't regard the Book of Enoch as canon. However some the New Testament writers quoted from that book, I presume they regarded it as canon.

Although if a film about Noah's flood which is as accurate as possible to the text, would have to feature Ham raping Noah. That alone would warrant an automatic NC-17 (Australian R) rating

(March 29, 2014 at 10:43 pm)truthBtold Wrote: R u soft ass baby shit.. really.. read ur fucking book. It a fairy tale with disgusting stories that bronze aged people thought of.

I rest my case....

(March 29, 2014 at 10:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(March 29, 2014 at 10:43 pm)truthBtold Wrote: R u soft ass baby shit.. really.. read ur fucking book. It a fairy tale with disgusting stories that bronze aged people thought of.

I rest my case....

You had a case???