(April 11, 2014 at 10:49 am)Sejanus Wrote:

(April 11, 2014 at 10:46 am)pocaracas Wrote: hehe... are you wanting to say that I can't be a better babysitter than my wife?

EDIT: or, at least, as good...

Uhh... no. I said what I bolded in your post was going to get you shit from some members.

Oh, that... well, whoever wishes can add a cisgender or transgender or whatever-gender before the words "men" and "women" to their liking... it works!

There is one thought I sometimes have when hearing the complaints of women and how they are treated in our society:

When they complain about equality in the workplace, the glass ceiling and equal pay for equal work, I am all in favor of feminism.

When they talk about promoting a greater understanding of the problems of rape, stalking, sexual harassment and other sexually predatory crimes as well as problems of domestic violence, and how to better deal with them, I am all in favor of feminism.

When they seem to want men to not like sex so much, to not be so "visual", to not like looking at pictures of scantily clad beautiful young women, then feminism either needs to come up with a plan to fundamentally rework the way men's brains are biologically wired or get over it.

(April 11, 2014 at 11:11 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: When they seem to want men to not like sex so much, to not be so "visual", to not like looking at pictures of scantily clad beautiful young women, then feminism either needs to come up with a plan to fundamentally rework the way men's brains are biologically wired or get over it.

Wouldn't that require a fundamental rework of the way women's brains are biologically wired..?

But I've met plenty of women who don't think that way; plenty more who are in to 'visuals' and like sex as much (if not more) than 'men'... What we've got here is a false generalisation based on some neurological commonalities for which there are great ranges of variation.

(April 11, 2014 at 11:11 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: There is one thought I sometimes have when hearing the complaints of women and how they are treated in our society:

When they complain about equality in the workplace, the glass ceiling and equal pay for equal work, I am all in favor of feminism.

When they talk about promoting a greater understanding of the problems of rape, stalking, sexual harassment and other sexually predatory crimes as well as problems of domestic violence, and how to better deal with them, I am all in favor of feminism.

When they seem to want men to not like sex so much, to not be so "visual", to not like looking at pictures of scantily clad beautiful young women, then feminism either needs to come up with a plan to fundamentally rework the way men's brains are biologically wired or get over it.

To address your 2nd sentence specifically if I could. Since I agree with your last point and disagree with your first point. A point in which you imply that feminism would help men in a poor workplace situation or whatever situation, I've yet to see that demonstrated. I'm not seeing feminists groups raise awareness for male rape, domestic abuse on men or sexual harassment on men or anything for men. Those issues are not taken as seriously in the justice system as when a female is raped or beat up for example. Which is why I'm dumbfounded people think Feminism empowers both genders equally then they ignore the other half of the population with penises.

(April 11, 2014 at 11:21 am)Ben Davis Wrote: I've met plenty of women who don't think that way; plenty more who are in to 'visuals' and like sex as much (if not more) than 'men'...

Ditto but that never seems to come up with some feminists who rail against the depiction of beautiful, young, scantily clad women in advertisement, gaming and entertainment. This is where they start to lose me in terms of my sympathy.

As a gamer, this topic does come up. Yes, idealized women are often depicted but so are men. The kinds of male bodies I see, with shoulders thrice the width of their waist and pecs as big as your head, are completely unattainable by the vast majority of males even if they worked out constantly and maintained a strict diet. This doesn't cause "insecurity" for me because I know it's all just fantasy.

It does seem a double-standard for me that the same women who have no problem with Fabio on the cover of a romance novel will become outraged by the lovely ladies in fantasy catering to men. And yes, the "bikini chain mail" outfits are ridiculous but so are the loin-clothed-Conan-like barbarian warriors who seem unconcerned about either protection from the elements or their lack of armor. The most dramatic example I remember is one depiction of a buff warrior, who's top-heavy body structure was supported by a waist so lean there was no room for any intestines, trudging through the freaking snow showing off his amazing topless 2% body-fat form. Hey, it's fantasy.

Men like sex and we like looking at beautiful women. And as one who's bi, the idealized men are easy on the eyes as well. Sorry ladies, but that's never changing and I won't apologize for it.

Now, that said, if feminism is fighting to make women more than JUST sex objects, that's a realistic goal I can support.

(April 11, 2014 at 11:35 am)Quantum Theorist Wrote: I'm not seeing feminists groups raise awareness for male rape, domestic abuse on men or sexual harassment on men or anything for men. Those issues are not taken as seriously in the justice system as when a female is raped or beat up for example. Which is why I'm dumbfounded people think Feminism empowers both genders equally then they ignore the other half of the population with penises.

It's a fair point. The only counter I would offer is a matter of scale. To gauge whether or not certain fears are rational, we often look at how likely the scenario is.

A woman who worries about being raped is simply taking rational precautions about a very real possibility. A man who worries about being raped has issues with his own sexuality. This is because the statistics show 1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime (not accounting for how under-reported rape is as a crime). I haven't seen the stats on men but I'll go out on a limb and say it's much lower.

Is the reason they aren't concerned with it because of "how often does that really happen?" or is it because they don't think it's a problem when it does?

(April 11, 2014 at 11:56 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(April 11, 2014 at 11:35 am)Quantum Theorist Wrote: I'm not seeing feminists groups raise awareness for male rape, domestic abuse on men or sexual harassment on men or anything for men. Those issues are not taken as seriously in the justice system as when a female is raped or beat up for example. Which is why I'm dumbfounded people think Feminism empowers both genders equally then they ignore the other half of the population with penises.

It's a fair point. The only counter I would offer is a matter of scale. To gauge whether or not certain fears are rational, we often look at how likely the scenario is.

A woman who worries about being raped is simply taking rational precautions about a very real possibility. A man who worries about being raped has issues with his own sexuality. This is because the statistics show 1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime (not accounting for how under-reported rape is as a crime). I haven't seen the stats on men but I'll go out on a limb and say it's much lower.

Is the reason they aren't concerned with it because of "how often does that really happen?" or is it because they don't think it's a problem when it does?

So the scale of which something bad happens (assuming you're right) means we leave the men out of the discussion? Nah, that's why feminism seems pretty sexist because they will get intelligent people like yourself to make statements like you just did about leaving men out since it doesn't happen to them as much..wow. I don't think that's reasonable at all to suggest men shouldn't be worried about rape either, seeing as how the #1 rape method today is date rape and you wouldn't see it coming.

The 1 in 4 stat is pretty out-dated wouldn't you say? especially in the states where rape has declined. We're talking about a stat that was around before porn, that alone made rape go down. I'm not even sure that stat is even accurate because then there really would be a rape culture in the sense that it's patriarchal and against women. Unless they're talking about worldwide it's 1 in 4. But if you include prisons, then male rape would be just as high or maybe higher. Rape is a hard case to prove so it's hard to sling stats one way or the other.

---

..And actually, male domestic abuse does happen a lot but it goes unreported likely because it isn't taken as seriously. So again, we should include all genders. Egalitarianism.

(April 11, 2014 at 12:13 pm)Quantum Theorist Wrote: So the scale of which something bad happens (assuming you're right) means we leave the men out of the discussion?

I never said that. I asked how much of a problem was it for our society and, when it does happen, is our current justice system up to the task of dealing with it?

By "how much of a problem", my reasoning is "very often" = "we need to change something in our culture to better discourage it" while "once in a blue moon" = "this is not so much a cultural issue as an issue for our justice system and the individuals involved".

Quote:..And actually, male domestic abuse does happen a lot but it goes unreported likely because it isn't taken as seriously. So again, we should include all genders. Egalitarianism.

My wife, who IS a feminist, has in fact said domestic abuse against men should be taken more seriously without my even prompting her to do so.

This is why I ask what feminists you've been talking to and what exactly have they said about violence against men?

I think I get what Quantum theorist is saying. Like him, i'm an egalitarian, but I don't want to be associated with the bad feminists or 'feminazi' that make the headlines. I would happily call myself a feminist if the bad part of feminism didn't exist. I've only ever heard feminists campaigning for equal rights of women but never for men. There are double standards all over the place. Like TV adverts. There was this sweet ad where two women eat the sweet and started talking really posh, then they sat down and watched a male strip show. There was no outcry from feminists. But imagine if the genders were reversed. There would be bloody outrage. You're objectifying women! Pigs! Its a clear double standard.
Or how about a more recent coca cola advert. A group of women sitting down in a park. A handsome groundskeeper mowing the lawn. They roll a can of coke down the hill for him, he picks it up, opens it and it sprays all over him. And then with the women watching, he takes his top off and continues amidst the awestruck stares of the women.
Another clear double standard. Imagine if the gender roles had been reversed.
And that's why I don't want to be associated with feminists.

A lot of feminists are sexists. If you're a sexist then you're sexist and it has nothing to do with whether or not you're a feminist.