Arguing over minimum wage is a distraction. I consider myself libertarian and would support a universal basic income. I abhor the fact that people are forced into low skill undesirable jobs simply because the alternative is destitution.

(April 13, 2014 at 11:56 pm)Cato Wrote: Arguing over minimum wage is a distraction. I consider myself libertarian and would support a universal basic income. I abhor the fact that people are forced into low skill undesirable jobs simply because the alternative is destitution.

I am a libertarian and support a negative income tax(which method of providing a basic universal income).

Ditch food stamps, ditch unemployment, ditch social security, ditch housing assistance, ditch heating assistance, ditch Obama phones.....ditch all of it and the bureaucracy that goes with it. Give poor people money instead.

Liberaltards and conservotards like to run peoples lives and think poor people are second class citizens whose finances need to be managed by the government. Let people be free for God's sake.

Ditch social security and instead give poor people money...

Wait, what?!

Here in Maryland minimum wage was increased to $10.10

and it's still not enough to live off of.

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(April 14, 2014 at 9:43 am)Heywood Wrote:

(April 13, 2014 at 11:56 pm)Cato Wrote: Arguing over minimum wage is a distraction. I consider myself libertarian and would support a universal basic income. I abhor the fact that people are forced into low skill undesirable jobs simply because the alternative is destitution.

I am a libertarian and support a negative income tax(which method of providing a basic universal income).

Ditch food stamps, ditch unemployment, ditch social security, ditch housing assistance, ditch heating assistance, ditch Obama phones.....ditch all of it and the bureaucracy that goes with it. Give poor people money instead.

Liberaltards and conservotards like to run peoples lives and think poor people are second class citizens whose finances need to be managed by the government. Let people be free for God's sake.

I can see that you mean well with your idea but it would never work.

I think its best to put the money into programs to limit the way the money is spent.

There are a TON of responsible people on welfare who have no problem with using money only for food. However, there are a plethora of irresponsible people on welfare too and with out these government guided programs may not use money for food or clothes for their children but for themselves and their vices. It's not a matter of government telling people what to do, it a matter of making sure the money is being used for living.

(April 13, 2014 at 5:48 pm)Chad32 Wrote: That wasn't very convincing, so i was wondering if anyone who knew more about economics could tell me how this works. How do we get the government to pay people more without employers jacking up the prices?

From a previous discussion in the politics forum, here you go.

The funny thing is, they jack up prices anyway. They don't need a higher minimum wage to do that. If wages had simply kept up with productivity and economic growth, minimum wage would currently be $16. The problem is the transfer of wealth into the pockets of crooked CEOs who take home multi-million dollar BONUSES on top of their already insanely bloated salaries. Workers don't get paid more, not because the companies would lose profit but because the owners would have one less house in a foreign country in which to stash their gains made off corporate welfare.

(April 13, 2014 at 11:35 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(April 13, 2014 at 8:24 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Oh no! You mean the employers will have to pay people a fair exchange for labor?!

Why do you think individuals are incapable of negotiating a fair wage?

Because the introductory job industry is sewn up by the fast food industry and places like Walmart, who refuse to pay their employees a living wage, and have them cash a McWelfare check because they don't pay enough for employees to live off even full time.

I'm having Déjà Vu, didn't we already go over this?

In places like California, we have so much illegal labor willing to work for in some cases, below minimum, that companies are willing to hire them for the jobs high school and college kids used to occupy, and have run the pay for skilled labor industries like construction and transport into the ground.

They lower overhead for the company because they don't expect health care benefits or pay taxes, and the employer gets to excuse hiring illegal labor due to the hostile tax and insurance environment of running a buisiness in California.

Nationwide, companies are outsourcing to save a few dollars. Have you called Microsoft tech support, or any call center for a major company lately?

They're all overseas. Millions of jobs no longer exist, because companies don't want to pay a fair wage. They look for the cheapest possible labor, and then collect tax write offs for doing it.

The last apartment complex I lived in pushed hundreds of residents out to transition to "low income housing," or government subsidized housing. Most of the people living there were already "low income," but the state works night and day making sure cheap labor is available to run large companies for the rich, so they don't have to pay a living wage.

(April 14, 2014 at 10:38 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: The funny thing is, they jack up prices anyway. They don't need a higher minimum wage to do that. If wages had simply kept up with productivity and economic growth, minimum wage would currently be $16. The problem is the transfer of wealth into the pockets of crooked CEOs who take home multi-million dollar BONUSES on top of their already insanely bloated salaries. Workers don't get paid more, not because the companies would lose profit but because the owners would have one less house in a foreign country in which to stash their gains made off corporate welfare.

People today, even those on minimum wage, have more stuff now then they ever did. Standards of living have gone up in this country not down.

(April 14, 2014 at 10:47 am)Heywood Wrote:

(April 14, 2014 at 10:38 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: The funny thing is, they jack up prices anyway. They don't need a higher minimum wage to do that. If wages had simply kept up with productivity and economic growth, minimum wage would currently be $16. The problem is the transfer of wealth into the pockets of crooked CEOs who take home multi-million dollar BONUSES on top of their already insanely bloated salaries. Workers don't get paid more, not because the companies would lose profit but because the owners would have one less house in a foreign country in which to stash their gains made off corporate welfare.

People today, even those on minimum wage, have more stuff now then they ever did. Standards of living have gone up in this country not down.

Mission accomplished? Success? Bring out the victory banners?

(April 14, 2014 at 10:40 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote:

(April 13, 2014 at 11:35 pm)Heywood Wrote: Why do you think individuals are incapable of negotiating a fair wage?

Because the introductory job industry is sewn up by the fast food industry and places like Walmart, who refuse to pay their employees a living wage, and have them cash a McWelfare check because they don't pay enough for employees to live off even full time.

I'm having Déjà Vu, didn't we already go over this?

In places like California, we have so much illegal labor willing to work for in some cases, below minimum, that companies are willing to hire them for the jobs high school and college kids used to occupy, and have run the pay for skilled labor industries like construction and transport into the ground. They lower overhead for the company because they don't expect health care benefits or pay taxes, and the employer gets to excuse hiring illegal labor due to the hostile tax and insurance environment of running a buisiness in California.

When minimum wage was first implemented in this country some people who were in favor for it argued it was necessary because wages were being depressed by blacks who were willing to work for less. Construction gangs were being formed in the South which would travel to the north and underbid all the local labor.

Before minimum wage the unemployment rate for blacks was the same or lower than it was for whites. After minimum wage, black unemployment shot way up. Implementing a minimum wage was probably one the most destructive things we did to the black community. It resulted in multiple generations of poverty.

If someone gets out of jail having paid a price for a crime would you hire them? Why should you if you have to pay them the same wage as someone with no criminal history? Why take the chance on them? If there was no minimum wage, ex-cons could market their labor for less, get a job, set a record of actually going straight, and then demand a higher wage. Minimum wage traps people in poverty and into lives of crime.