Hi All - So I'm at a place where I really need to solidify my beliefs about God and Christianity. I thought that The God Delusion would be a good starting point? I'd also like to read some arguments in support of God and Christianity, but as with Dawkins, these books are criticized as dogmatic, flawed, arrogant, (fill in the blank). Are there any books on apologetics that are somewhat respected by the Athiest Community? Books that cut through flawed logic, and circular arguments and get down to fundamentals? Books that you might rate more than one star?

Thought about asking our pastor, but I need unbiased opinions.

Thanks,

I have to say, kudos to you for seeking out dissenting views as a test of faith.

The true measure of faith isn't in seeking confirmation, but in exploring and questioning everything, and deciding for yourself what you believe. I'm fond of Hegel's lectures on religion, dense as they are, and Huston Smith's The World's Religions.

I have yet to read anything by Dawkins, so I can't give an opinion there.

Your Inner Fish by Neil Schuben is a less biased, more interesting read so far.

Aquinas' summa theologe and Pascal are worth reading, but contemporaries like William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga are not worth your time, and in my opinion an insult to not only apologetics but critical thinking.

I also recommend Marvin Meyer's Nag Hammadi Scriptures for some dissenting views of Christianity outside canonical scripture.

Personally, though, if you want works that cut right through all the BS and get straight down to fundamentals, I'd recommend Nietzsche. The man pulled no punches, and has an accessible, easy writing style in which he sums up some many of the base concepts of existentialism without the floral prose of some other 19th century philosophy. He's out to offend with the fervor of a '90's radio shock jock, but once you get past all the negative misnomers that surround his writing, he has a lot to say about morality, religion, and says it well.

I don't think the words "respectable" and "apologetics" should ever be used in the same sentence.
That said, welcome to the forums. I hope you stay. You should peruse the rules, if you intend to stay here long.
As for your question, I have to admit, I haven't read many books on atheism, and certainly not any on christian apologetics. There are, however, a lot of youtube atheist channels I watch that might test your faith. Here's just a few:

Darkmatter2525 - he uses cartoons to depict his criticism of religion, which are very witty and often have a subtlety about them that makes you think.

The Amazing Atheist - he can be seen as rude, but I think he usually makes sound arguments. I would recommend his older videos, however, as his newer ones are often not as philosophical.

Thunderf00t - he's a scientist (I think he's either a nuclear physicist or a chemical engineer), and as you might expect, an intelligent guy.

TheCultOfDusty - not my favourite atheist youtuber, but he does have good arguments.

Perhaps something else you could consider would be increasing your scientific knowledge. Often a misunderstanding of the science behind, say, evolution causes problems for theists on this board. For that you should read maybe some of Dawkins' books on evolution, The Selfish Gene, for example. A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking would be good for a n overview of the scientific understanding of the universe.

(April 15, 2014 at 3:53 am)simpleinterest Wrote: Books that cut through flawed logic, and circular arguments and get down to fundamentals? Books that you might rate more than one star?

If books like this existed, chances are there would be fewer atheists. What apologetics books are missing is evidence. Argumentation, no matter how well constructed or sophisticated, cannot overcome this. Apologetics is only satisfying to those that already believe or wish to believe in the existence of God as portrayed in the Bible.

If I must, I would stick with AAA: Augustine, Aquinas, and Anselm. Keep in mind that this is to understand the basis of much of Christian philosophy; the arguments have been refuted for hundreds of years.

You want a christian apologetics book?
Or something leaning more to atheism?
On this latter one, you can't go wrong with "God is not great" by the great Christopher Hitchins
Or, if you just want to browse through a website with everything in one place: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

A good book for the atheist argument[ God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist
by Victor J. Stenger. The author is a leading particle physicist.

A good book for the theist argument[ God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? John Lennox
The author John lennox is a theist and a professor of mathematics at oxford university where richard dawkins is also a professor.

(April 15, 2014 at 3:53 am)simpleinterest Wrote: Hi All - So I'm at a place where I really need to solidify my beliefs about God and Christianity. I thought that The God Delusion would be a good starting point? I'd also like to read some arguments in support of God and Christianity, but as with Dawkins, these books are criticized as dogmatic, flawed, arrogant, (fill in the blank). Are there any books on apologetics that are somewhat respected by the Athiest Community? Books that cut through flawed logic, and circular arguments and get down to fundamentals? Books that you might rate more than one star?

Are you willing to look at books concerning Christianity from a non-standard, yet Christian point of view?

My wife is a big fan of Love Wins, by Rob Bell. I may have liked it better if I still believed when I read it. If nothing else, it's a good exercise on seeing how you can stake out quite a wide variety of beliefs all citing the same source (the Bible).

I agree with Rampant A.I. and Cato that you should stick to Christianity's heavy hitters if you want the best of what Christian apologetics has to offer. I also agree with Rampant that Craig and Plantinga are an affront to critical thinking and are not to be taken seriously. However, their influence on internet apologists is so pervasive that you might do well to quell your disgust long enough to see what their arguments amount to. [Spoiler alert: Not much, unless you are a connoisseur of desperate sophistry]

One additional Christian I would suggest is Soren Kierkegaard. He wrote voluminously but is probably best known for Fear and Trembling. You'll often see discussions here that involve a non-believer asking a believer, "If you thought that God had commanded you to kill your son/wife/mother/etc., would you do it?" Kierkegaard cut right through the bullshit and confronted the issue head-on. Fear and Trembling is, to me, a terrifying glimpse into the mind of a person -- Kierkegaard's "Knight of Faith" -- who values faith and commitment over truth.

Also, if you are looking for a good history of philosophy, I recommend Frederick Copleston's work, which is especially strong in discussing ancient and medieval philosophy. Copleston was a Jesuit and his religious commitments sometimes color his treatment of certain thinkers, such as Hume, but he is upfront about his biases, and his treatment of philosophers is usually even-handed.

(April 15, 2014 at 4:40 am)Sejanus Wrote: I don't think the words "respectable" and "apologetics" should ever be used in the same sentence.
That said, welcome to the forums. I hope you stay. You should peruse the rules, if you intend to stay here long.
As for your question, I have to admit, I haven't read many books on atheism, and certainly not any on christian apologetics. There are, however, a lot of youtube atheist channels I watch that might test your faith. Here's just a few:

Darkmatter2525 - he uses cartoons to depict his criticism of religion, which are very witty and often have a subtlety about them that makes you think.

The Amazing Atheist - he can be seen as rude, but I think he usually makes sound arguments. I would recommend his older videos, however, as his newer ones are often not as philosophical.

Thunderf00t - he's a scientist (I think he's either a nuclear physicist or a chemical engineer), and as you might expect, an intelligent guy.

TheCultOfDusty - not my favourite atheist youtuber, but he does have good arguments.

Perhaps something else you could consider would be increasing your scientific knowledge. Often a misunderstanding of the science behind, say, evolution causes problems for theists on this board. For that you should read maybe some of Dawkins' books on evolution, The Selfish Gene, for example. A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking would be good for a n overview of the scientific understanding of the universe.

I second darkmatter2525.

Read "Jesus Interrupted" by Bart Ehrman. That will tell you where to go next.