(April 17, 2014 at 5:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I recently ran across a truly stunning example of Christian 'logic'. I quote it here in full:

Quote:Christians and atheists are alike in that they have numerous differing opinions among themselves. One thing that means is that people think for themselves. If you read the bible you find there are certain passages that are very clear and easy to intrepret while others are less distinct. In Romans 10:9 Paul wrote "if you confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That's what distinguishes a Christian from a non-christian - our belief in Jesus as our savior and the son of God. A "christian atheist" is not a christian. Jesus never said you must interpret all the scriptures in the same exact way in order to be saved. There are correct and incorrect interpretations for every verse in the bible and the more you study it, the more the Holy Spirit will show you. It wasn't meant to be easy.

Boru

Thanks.

(April 17, 2014 at 5:42 pm)Lek Wrote: Roman catholics and protestants disagree over numerous points of doctrine, but if a catholic and a protestant both believe that Jesus is the son of God and have faith that he is their savior, that is what makes them both christians.

The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry disagrees with you.

Is Roman Catholicism and Christianity the same thing?

Quote:So, even though Roman Catholicism claims to be Christian and that it is the one true church, it violates the essentials of the Christian faith. It goes beyond what is written in God's word (1 Cor. 4:6). It denies the sole and true sovereignty of the living God by promoting prayer to and the worship of Mary. Also, it denies justification by faith alone in Christ alone. It is not a Christian church.

Here's another one on Jesus Is Saviour Com

Alert -The Roman Catholic "Church" is Not Christian

(April 17, 2014 at 5:42 pm)Lek Wrote: The bible nowhere even remotely says that Jesus is the brother of the devil or is Michael the archangel.

But these things were revealed to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses by God.

(April 17, 2014 at 5:42 pm)Lek Wrote: If that is someone's belief, I would question whether or not he or she is a christian.

So you reject their claims that these things were revealed by God even though you believe claims that the Bible is true.

From my perspective, all this find theological hair-splitting over what constitutes a True Christian is laughable. When you look at the diverse beliefs that were all part of "Christianity" pre-Nicaea, you find there wasn't any such nuanced criteria.

Docetic Christian: Jesus couldn't have been a material being. The material world is evil. God is not evil. Therefore, Jesus could only have been a spiritual apparition.

Marcionite Christian: Jesus was a higher god, superior to that clown Yahweh. Throw out the OT and all things Jewish. Mary and Joseph? What, this god was a baby? Did Mary have to change God's diapers or feed God at 2 am? Ridiculous! Jesus appeared in the temple one day as a fully formed adult. No childhood, no virgin birth, no Christmas manger scene.

Ebionite Christian: ...or the original "Jews for Jesus". Jesus was a normal man, born the son of Joseph and Mary, conceived as all babies are. At his baptism, God adopted Jesus as a son and the Holy Spirit entered Jesus. The two of them went about for a few years performing miracles. Kind of a symbiotic relationship. Then at the crucifixion, The Holy Spirit left Jesus, hence why Jesus asked "why hast thou forsaken me". God raised Jesus and brought him to Heaven. Paul is a heretic. Salvation is by keeping the Jewish laws.

Arian Christian: No relation to Hitler's mythical Arian race. Jesus was an angel sent by God, clearly separate from and subordinate to God.

These are just a few I could think of.

(April 18, 2014 at 8:35 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Arian Christian: No relation to Hitler's mythical Arian race. Jesus was an angel sent by God, clearly separate from and subordinate to God.

The Jehovah's Witness idea that Jesus is an archangel isn't exactly new. How can Christians who reject this idea be so certain that it's wrong?

(April 17, 2014 at 5:42 pm)Lek Wrote: The bible nowhere even remotely says that Jesus is the brother of the devil or is Michael the archangel.

But the Jehovah's Witnesses find evidence in the Bible for their belief.

Who Is Michael The Archangel?

(April 17, 2014 at 5:42 pm)Lek Wrote: The bible nowhere even remotely says that Jesus is the brother of the devil or is Michael the archangel.

The first three Gospels depict a Jesus that is clearly separate from and subordinate to his "father" Yahweh. It's not until the Gospel of John was penned that the idea of the son being one with the father started to take root.

In the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus lacks the knowledge of his father (when the second coming will be), his will is clearly separate and subordinate ("not my will but thy will be done") and he and his father speak to one another in 2nd person and about one another in 3rd.

The Trinity was a later invention to merge the Pagan concepts of an intercessor with the divine that Jesus represented with Jewish traditions of strict monotheism.

(April 18, 2014 at 9:30 am)Confused Ape Wrote: The Jehovah's Witness idea that Jesus is an archangel isn't exactly new.

Indeed and I sometimes wonder if Islam is an offshoot of or related to Ebionite Christianity.

(April 18, 2014 at 10:03 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Indeed and I sometimes wonder if Islam is an offshoot of or related to Ebionite Christianity.

Interesting idea. I found an article written by a Muslim

Sourcematerial on the Ebionites, from Eusebius and Irenaeus

Quote:Some people think that the early Jewish-Christians are the "true Christians" from an Islamic point of view. One of the early Jewish-Christian groups were known as the Ebionites. The Ebionites believed that Jesus was a man, not God, as Muslims do. A segment of them believed that Jesus was of a virgin birth, as Muslims also do, while a segment of them denied the virgin birth. The Ebionites practised Jewish Law, as according to Islam, the followers of Jesus (a.s.) were supposed to.

I have dug up some of the original source material on the Ebionites from Eusebius's History of the Church, and also from Ireneaus's polemical writings. These are anti-Ebionite polemical writings, so we can't always consider that what they say is accurate, however some people may be interested in having access to the source material.

The Ebionites were supposed to have rejected St Paul.

Ebionites

Quote: Epiphanius relates that the Ebionites opposed the Apostle Paul, whom they saw as responsible that gentile Christians did not have to be circumcised, nor otherwise follow the Law of Moses, and named him an apostate.[22] Epiphanius further relates that some Ebionites alleged that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism in order to marry the daughter of a high priest of Israel but apostatized when she rejected him.[83][84]

Paul the Apostle - Islamic View

Quote:Paul's name is mentioned in several Islamic hadiths of the Shia sect of Islam, and in some of them he is mentioned as the deceiver of the Christians, and along with people like Cain, Nimrod, Fir'aun and Samiri, is punished in a stage of Hell called Saqar. Another hadith found in books of the Shia stream of Islam mentions demons that mislead people after prophets, and names Paul as the demon that misled people after Jesus.[121][122] Also, some authentic hadiths narrated in Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and Jami al-Tirmidhi, among other books, mention that in the afterlife, autarch and arrogant people are imprisoned in a jail named "Paulus", which is the most painful location of hell.[123][124]

(April 17, 2014 at 4:47 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 17, 2014 at 4:09 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Wow, that's even more elaborate than the ones I knew. The self-described "atheist Christians" that I knew were people who rejected the idea of a god or afterlife but nonetheless considered themselves followers of the "wise teachings of Jesus".

On the surface, given our cultures reverence for and rose-colored glasses view of Jesus, this seems reasonable enough. Maybe they liked the parts about "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others..." but they might not regard themselves as devotees of Jesus if they bothered to read the rest. After all, a substantial part of Jesus' teachings are about devotion to his father god and salvation from Hell. Another significant part are unfeasible teachings like his outlandishly extreme pacifism and poverty.

My suggestion, were I to meet an atheist Christian today, would be to read the Gospels with a critical eye before embracing the teachings of Jesus. The few wise things he did preach were not original and the rest, to put it kindly, wasn't that great.

Christians and atheists are alike in that they have numerous differing opinions among themselves. One thing that means is that people think for themselves. If you read the bible you find there are certain passages that are very clear and easy to intrepret while others are less distinct. In Romans 10:9 Paul wrote "if you confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That's what distinguishes a Christian from a non-christian - our belief in Jesus as our savior and the son of God. A "christian atheist" is not a christian. Jesus never said you must interpret all the scriptures in the same exact way in order to be saved. There are correct and incorrect interpretations for every verse in the bible and the more you study it, the more the Holy Spirit will show you. It wasn't meant to be easy.

MY BOLDING

Taking that to its logical conclusion....then......after......1500 YEARS ......wouldn't it have filtered down to one perfect christian interpretation.....

SO WHY IS IT JUST THE OPPOSITE?????????




.

Its fun (for a few minutes anyway) to watch people try to make sense of what they consider to be "nothing" at all.

Like watching an ant farm...or a dog chase its tail. You wonder for a moment what the point is? Then... you dismiss it as just..... eh.... illogical.

Matt 11:25, "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

(April 18, 2014 at 2:52 pm)ronedee Wrote: Its fun (for a few minutes anyway) to watch people try to make sense of what they consider to be "nothing" at all.

Like watching an ant farm...or a dog chase its tail. You wonder for a moment what the point is? Then... you dismiss it as just..... eh.... illogical.

Matt 11:25, "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

The Royalty of Hooey is at it again.