(April 19, 2014 at 4:17 pm)Lek Wrote: No. Faith in Christ is a prerequisite to being a christian. A person who does have faith in Christ will be comitted to living a good lifestyle because it is his desire to do Jesus' will. If I don't desire to do his will then I don't have faith. Also, if I live a good lifestyle and deny the existence of God, I am not a christian, even if I call myself one. Faith is what saves you and your lifestyle is evidence of your faith.

So, faith is the prerequisite, and your adherence to the doctrine constitutes your skill level at being a christian, which was sort of my point. A christian who believes honestly and follows as many of the commandments as possible- and you yourself admit that even those who try their hardest fall to sin occasionally- is still a christian no matter how many times they fail. There's no point at which your actions would suddenly make you "not a christian" anymore, under your logic, you'd just be a bad christian.

The worst professional soccer player in the world is still a professional soccer player, he doesn't suddenly become not a soccer player because he fails at his chosen task. It's so weird; you christians accept that sin is a constant temptation and that faith is a means to save oneself from that, but then whenever a christian does something that reflects poorly on your religion all of that goes out the window and suddenly faith doesn't matter because your actions determine whether or not you're a christian. You can't have it both ways.

(April 19, 2014 at 5:15 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 19, 2014 at 4:17 pm)Lek Wrote: No. Faith in Christ is a prerequisite to being a christian. A person who does have faith in Christ will be comitted to living a good lifestyle because it is his desire to do Jesus' will. If I don't desire to do his will then I don't have faith. Also, if I live a good lifestyle and deny the existence of God, I am not a christian, even if I call myself one. Faith is what saves you and your lifestyle is evidence of your faith.

So, faith is the prerequisite, and your adherence to the doctrine constitutes your skill level at being a christian, which was sort of my point. A christian who believes honestly and follows as many of the commandments as possible- and you yourself admit that even those who try their hardest fall to sin occasionally- is still a christian no matter how many times they fail. There's no point at which your actions would suddenly make you "not a christian" anymore, under your logic, you'd just be a bad christian.

The worst professional soccer player in the world is still a professional soccer player, he doesn't suddenly become not a soccer player because he fails at his chosen task. It's so weird; you christians accept that sin is a constant temptation and that faith is a means to save oneself from that, but then whenever a christian does something that reflects poorly on your religion all of that goes out the window and suddenly faith doesn't matter because your actions determine whether or not you're a christian. You can't have it both ways.

If I am devoted to being a professional soccer player and I'm told not to touch the ball with my hands, I won't touch the ball with my hands as a rule. Sometimes the ball may be speeding toward my face and I will put my hands up to block the ball. I know it's against the rules and I'm upset that I did it, so I try in the future to block it with my head or chest. Likewise, I might decide on the spur of the moment to make an illegal tackle, but I know this is wrong and won't make me a good soccer player, so I try to correct myself. From time to time, I mess up and I try again, but I really want to be a great player. Someone who desires to follow Christ will likewise generally succeed, with some failures along the way, especially when calling upon God for help and guidance. He's not alone, but he has the Holy Spirit to call upon. If I really want to be a great soccer player I will , as a matter of course, try to do what it takes to be one. The same for somone comitted to following Christ. If I'm not comitted, then I'll do what comes easier. Whether people care or don't care will eventually become evident in their lives. God, at the same time, looks at peoples hearts and efforts as well as their actions.

(April 19, 2014 at 12:50 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 19, 2014 at 2:39 am)Esquilax Wrote: Listen, I know you've got to throw up this dishonest little defense mechanism to stop other people's actions reflecting poorly on the group- I don't think they do, in this case, but you clearly do- but what you really mean to say is that you think this particular person is bad at being a christian. Christianity is a statement of beliefs and not actions, and you can't possibly know about anyone else's true beliefs, so... let's not stoop to lying.

If you'll notice, I did say that I couldn't judge the state of her faith, but if what he said was true, she wasn't exhibiting a christian lifestyle. Of course, christianity is easy if you can live any way you want and still have salvation, but that's not christianity. Like I've stated before, faith includes the desire to do God's will - it's a change of heart. If you have no desire to follow Jesus, then you are not of the christian faith. You can call yourself a christian, but that 's not what yor are. Christians will sin, but overall they're live a life characterized by a commitment to following Christ.

There's no such thing as a 'Christian lifestyle', or a 'true Christian' for that matter. 'Following Christ' is entirely reliant on what you think 'Christ' is and what he wants you to do.

Which is to say, is whatever the believer wants it to be.

(April 19, 2014 at 6:09 pm)Lek Wrote: If I am devoted to being a professional soccer player and I'm told not to touch the ball with my hands, I won't touch the ball with my hands as a rule. Sometimes the ball may be speeding toward my face and I will put my hands up to block the ball. I know it's against the rules and I'm upset that I did it, so I try in the future to block it with my head or chest. Likewise, I might decide on the spur of the moment to make an illegal tackle, but I know this is wrong and won't make me a good soccer player, so I try to correct myself. From time to time, I mess up and I try again, but I really want to be a great player. Someone who desires to follow Christ will likewise generally succeed, with some failures along the way, especially when calling upon God for help and guidance. He's not alone, but he has the Holy Spirit to call upon. If I really want to be a great soccer player I will , as a matter of course, try to do what it takes to be one. The same for somone comitted to following Christ. If I'm not comitted, then I'll do what comes easier. Whether people care or don't care will eventually become evident in their lives. God, at the same time, looks at peoples hearts and efforts as well as their actions.

So what I'm seeing is you continuing to admit that it's beliefs and not actions that constitute what a christian is, and that even devout christians fail, so are you then admitting that whenever you call someone not a true christian you're claiming to have insight into how they feel about their failures that you cannot possibly have?

(April 19, 2014 at 6:35 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 19, 2014 at 6:09 pm)Lek Wrote: If I am devoted to being a professional soccer player and I'm told not to touch the ball with my hands, I won't touch the ball with my hands as a rule. Sometimes the ball may be speeding toward my face and I will put my hands up to block the ball. I know it's against the rules and I'm upset that I did it, so I try in the future to block it with my head or chest. Likewise, I might decide on the spur of the moment to make an illegal tackle, but I know this is wrong and won't make me a good soccer player, so I try to correct myself. From time to time, I mess up and I try again, but I really want to be a great player. Someone who desires to follow Christ will likewise generally succeed, with some failures along the way, especially when calling upon God for help and guidance. He's not alone, but he has the Holy Spirit to call upon. If I really want to be a great soccer player I will , as a matter of course, try to do what it takes to be one. The same for somone comitted to following Christ. If I'm not comitted, then I'll do what comes easier. Whether people care or don't care will eventually become evident in their lives. God, at the same time, looks at peoples hearts and efforts as well as their actions.

So what I'm seeing is you continuing to admit that it's beliefs and not actions that constitute what a christian is, and that even devout christians fail, so are you then admitting that whenever you call someone not a true christian you're claiming to have insight into how they feel about their failures that you cannot possibly have?

Obviously, you're not grasping what I'm trying to get across. I guess the readers can judge for themselves.

(April 19, 2014 at 11:12 pm)Lek Wrote: Obviously, you're not grasping what I'm trying to get across. I guess the readers can judge for themselves.

Oh, I get what you're saying just fine: you're saying that though "true christians" might stumble into sin they have the good sense to feel bad about it and attempt to rectify that, which is a statement that implies that every time you say someone isn't a true christian you A: know the contents of their mind in a way you simply couldn't, B: know their actions in response to the sin that led you to use that label in the first place, again in a way you couldn't possibly, and C: know that your particular spin on the bible is the correct one.

A and B should be clear enough, but C is part of a much larger issue, that being that there's another possibility here: it's entirely possible that the behavior you deem sinful is perfectly fine under the interpretation of scripture that the other guy, your untrue christian, has. At that point, it's just down to spin, since undoubtedly you both have immoral or inconvenient biblical ordinances that you just disregard; what constitutes a "true christian" is just whatever's convenient for the christian speaking at the time.

(April 18, 2014 at 4:50 pm)Godlesspanther Wrote:

(April 18, 2014 at 4:31 pm)ThePinsir Wrote: I tend to think the same way. I don't think most people reaaaaaly believe in a god. They believe in belief.

However, to state that is utmost arrogance. It's the same as a xian tell me I really do believe. It's unfair to put words in someones else's mouth...or ideas in their heads, so to speak.

So, I just smile and wave lol

I suspect that a majority of people who claim belief in a deity really do genuinely believe in that deity. We look at things like the Heaven's Gate cult -- 39 people killed themselves thinking that they would catch a ride on comet by doing so. Completely irrational thing to believe without a spot of evidence to suggest that it might even be possible, but they believed it 100% -- if there were anything short of absolute certainty -- they would still be alive.

I think the problem lies in believing in belief. They seem to be of the opinion that adamant dogmatic insistence is the same as evidence. "I really, really, really believe this shit, therefore -- it's true."

You can't make something true by dogmatically insisting that it's true. When a person comes to this realization then they are usually on their way to abandoning whatever faith they are being imprisoned by.

You're forgetting that people are stupid and a majority of people are clinically insane. So it's perfectly normal for such people to believe that they would catch a ride on a comet. Consider all of the recent past and current preachers who blab about the end of the world. Countless people believe them even though everyone has been wrong about such things.