(April 21, 2014 at 12:46 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 21, 2014 at 11:38 am)Stimbo Wrote: Bolding mine to demonstrate where you palmed a card. What you feel to be true is irrelevant; what you can demonstrate to be true is the key.

I think I've repeated many times how I differ with Atheists with respect to this. I do think what feel is true is important irrelevant to whether we can demonstrate it to be true or not. Our feeling of certain morals for example since children - we had no philosophical justification - but believed in them and could not demonstrate them to be true.

You're conflating awareness of things and belief in those things with feelings about them. Don't get trapped in the language.

(April 21, 2014 at 12:46 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote:Atheists? No idea. Me personally? Towards being the best human I know how to be.

But when the human is the best at it can be, it is at a higher reality or is simply a conceptual thing?

Higher reality? What does that mean? Higher than what? Than it was before, or than someone else's? Besides which, youre palming another card here. Neither you nor I were talking about being at the best at anything; up to now the subject was "gravitating towards". I don't ever claim to be the best human, nor even the best I can be, but I can work towards becoming better than I was. I'm speaking in terms of the social comtract, in case there's any misunderstandings.

(April 21, 2014 at 12:46 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote:You're missing something.

I think I might be.

Never mind; that's the nature and purpose of discussion: the meaningful exchange of ideas and information.

(April 21, 2014 at 12:46 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote:First show that "God" is in the picture, then we can talk.

We already can talk, does that mean I've shown God is in the picture or you made a mistake

No, it means that you are again being led astray by the language. That we can talk is obvious - that we have something of substance to talk about, not so much.

(April 21, 2014 at 1:06 pm)Stimbo Wrote: You're conflating awareness of things and belief in those things with feelings about them. Don't get trapped in the language.

I think you are getting trapped in language. I don't go around saying "I am aware of God's existence..." because it sounds arrogant, even if I believe I am. I use words "I feel..." "I believe.." as etiquette.

Quote:

(April 21, 2014 at 12:46 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But when the human is the best at it can be, it is at a higher reality or is simply a conceptual thing?

Higher reality? What does that mean? Higher than what? Than it was before, or than someone else's? Besides which, youre palming another card here. Neither you nor I were talking about being at the best at anything; up to now the subject was "gravitating towards". I don't ever claim to be the best human, nor even the best I can be, but I can work towards becoming better than I was. I'm speaking in terms of the social comtract, in case there's any misunderstandings.

But I'm talking about this sort of thing. I'm not discussing conceptually becoming a better person, but what we gravitate towards when we become better people. I talked about how I feel we gravitate towards God. In absence of God, I'm trying to see what Atheists feel they gravitate towards. It seems nothing is the answer. But what does this do with higher and lower ranks of existence? Are they all imaginary illusions?

Quote:No, it means that you are again being led astray by the language. That we can talk is obvious - that we have something of substance to talk about, not so much.

It seems we can talk about something of substance regarding this subject, whether I demonstrate there being a god or not.

(April 21, 2014 at 1:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 21, 2014 at 1:06 pm)Stimbo Wrote: You're conflating awareness of things and belief in those things with feelings about them. Don't get trapped in the language.

I think you are getting trapped in language. I don't go around saying "I am aware of God's existence..." because it sounds arrogant, even if I believe I am. I use words "I feel..." "I believe.." as etiquette.

You have to lapse into feeling-type language, even if you're not aware of it, because making claims of awareness of the existence of "God" isn't so much arrogant as a minefield to defend.

(April 21, 2014 at 1:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote:Higher reality? What does that mean? Higher than what? Than it was before, or than someone else's? Besides which, youre palming another card here. Neither you nor I were talking about being at the best at anything; up to now the subject was "gravitating towards". I don't ever claim to be the best human, nor even the best I can be, but I can work towards becoming better than I was. I'm speaking in terms of the social comtract, in case there's any misunderstandings.

But I'm talking about this sort of thing. I'm not discussing conceptually becoming a better person, but what we gravitate towards when we become better people. I talked about how I feel we gravitate towards God. In absence of God, I'm trying to see what Atheists feel they gravitate towards. It seems nothing is the answer. But what does this do with higher and lower ranks of existence? Are they all imaginary illusions?

There are no higher or lower levels of existence - if things exist, they share the same level of existence regardless of your personal feelings on the matter.

(April 21, 2014 at 1:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote:No, it means that you are again being led astray by the language. That we can talk is obvious - that we have something of substance to talk about, not so much.

It seems we can talk about something of substance regarding this subject, whether I demonstrate there being a god or not.

There you go, feeling about the place again. We can definitely discuss such things, but they remain in the realms of the hypothetical until such time as they can be demonstrated to connect to anything real. That's where you have the ball in your court.

Stimbo, are you neutral regarding God's existence or do you think he doesn't exist?

I take the standard atheist (not Atheist) position - the ones making the claims to its existence bear the burden of presenting why they believe that.

That said, in my day-to-day interaction with the bit of the Universe within my sphere of influence, I don't believe a god - let alone "God" - can possibly exist in a Universe like ours; and certainly not without leaving evidence.

Why? Does it make a difference to how you perceive my responses?

(April 21, 2014 at 1:28 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why? Does it make a difference to how you perceive my responses?

Yes, because saying there is no higher or lower stages of existence doesn't seem consistent if you are neutral about God. It would seem if God exists, lower and higher spiritual stages seems natural to believe. Something that Theists of all types believed.

You're 'seeming' again. Ok, let's say I misspoke: you are positing that there are higher/lower stages of existence - can you demonstrate that?

Well I think it's innate knowledge. Good actions improve your rank while bad actions bring your rank down. We have pride in good actions because they contribute to a higher identity.

This is something most humans believe. Have you considered if these ranks of higher and lower exist and God exists, that we can easily have a sense of them that makes us know it's true? And doesn't it seem like we do just like we have a moral sense?

Improve your rank against what? The only answer that fits that gap is "other people". We have another truism: play nice and people will like you. Be a dick and they will unfriend you (all else being equal, of course). It's what makes society work, at least on a fundamental level.

How do you get from there to "God"? Just feeling it to be true, even innately, isn't much of an answer and hardly convincing. Some misguided individuals feel that ABBA is the greatest popular rhythm combo of all time; won't make it true, though.

Well, God is The Highest existence, so you are getting closer to that. Improve your rank against what? Let's say yourself?