The nearness to God factor. How do Atheists feel about moving higher or lower?

[ThePinsir]

I gravitate towards the earth...because it's the most massive object in my vicinity.

[Fromper]

An argument can be made on the lines of this.

When we perform good actions and become better people, we ascend in stages of existence.
Ascension in stages of existence is only explained by existence of God.
Therefore God exists.

Interested in which of these two premises Atheists here have a problem with. 1 or 2? Or both?

So, looking this up in my MystickKnight-to-Atheist translation dictionary, I get this:

"I babble.
God makes me babble.
Therefore, God exists."

I'm just kidding (mostly)..

But seriously, where did you get this "stages of existence" thing from? I'm no expert on various religions or philosophies, but I like to think I'm well read enough that if it was a major part of any of the well known ones, I'd have seen it before. As is, it seems like something you completely invented yourself, and you wonder why the rest of the world doesn't agree with you.

Though it does seem slightly related to the concept of karma, so maybe you're just trying to invent a ruler that can measure karma. But since karma's a religious concept, the idea that you'd expect atheists to agree with it does seem kinda silly.

So to give you a more specific answer to the specific question asked, I definitely disagree with the first statement, at least partially because I have no idea what it means, and partially because I disagree with the parts that I do understand. This makes the 2nd statement so irrelevant that it doesn't matter whether or not I agree with it.

So let's break down that first statement:

"When we perform good actions and become better people, we ascend in stages of existence."

1. Define "good actions".
2. Define "better people". Better than what? Better in what regard? I'm assuming you're talking about morally better, but since morality is in the eye of the beholder, this goes back to my first question. Everyone will have their own definition of "good".
3. Define "stages of existence". This is the biggest part where I think you lose most people.

[LostLocke]

An argument can be made on the lines of this.

When we perform good actions and become better people, we ascend in stages of existence.
Ascension in stages of existence is only explained by existence of God.
Therefore God exists.

Interested in which of these two premises Atheists here have a problem with. 1 or 2? Or both?

There's no evidence there are "stages of existence" to begin with.

[Angrboda]

Our feeling of certain morals for example since children - we had no philosophical justification - but believed in them and could not demonstrate them to be true.

You're making up a reality here. Children don't start out with the same morality which they end up with. They start with morals based on a certain system, and as they grow and develop, their minds change and their system of morals changes. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's not innate, but it does show that we aren't born with the same moral feelings we have as adults. Your belief that we have an innate, unchanging moral sense is simply wrong. If morality were part of our "soul" then why do all children mature in the same way? Why aren't some just born "closer to God" than others?

Well I think it's innate knowledge. Good actions improve your rank while bad actions bring your rank down. We have pride in good actions because they contribute to a higher identity.

This is something most humans believe. Have you considered if these ranks of higher and lower exist and God exists, that we can easily have a sense of them that makes us know it's true? And doesn't it seem like we do just like we have a moral sense?

"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments; there are consequences."
~ Robert Ingersoll

[Simon Moon]

I think I have to re-word the 2nd premise into:

Ascension in stages of existence is only possible with existence of God.

Albeit the same meaning, but just in case, people get into semantics.

Rewording your second premise makes no difference.

The logical problems with your first syllogism, or the one with the reworded 2nd premise are many, and obvious.

When we perform good actions and become better people, we ascend in stages of existence.

1. 'good actions' have to be defined.
2. Demonstrable evidence must be provided that there are 'stages of existence'. Without evidence, it sure looks like you are making an unsupported assertion.

Ascension in stages of existence is only explained by existence of God.

Even if these undefined 'stages of existence' actually existed, that in itself would not mean that a god exists by default. The existence of a god is a separate claim that requires separate evidence.

Therefore God exists.

Not even close. Your premises do not lead to this conclusion.

Fallacies: Begging the question (several times), affirming the consequent


On an unrelated note. Please define 'Deist' or 'deism', because you don't seem to fit any definition I've ever heard.

[Aisha]

I think it is natural for people to want to grow/move higher, whether that is to gain more knowledge, money or acknowledgement does not matter.
Everyone strives for better and more. This is what made us survive as species in the first place.

I do not see why this can only be done with a god, if anything it seems to be more important on a personal level.

[ManMachine]

Hi

When I think of people that are really good people, I have sense they are nearer to God then others. I also feel we can move closer to God. I feel there is stages and that these stages are real, that we really move closer or further from God by how our hearts of souls move through out lives influenced by how we act and react.

Taking away God, what do Atheists feel they gravitate towards? Goodness has no metaphysical existence to draw closer to from an Atheistic perspective, so while we may become more good, we are not moving closer to anything really or am I missing something?

Do you still feel there is stages of higher and lower if we take God out of the picture?

Morality has significant social functions. This is not news, religion engages with the social aspects of morality too. Why would atheists not behave in a socially responsible manner?

As I see it, the fundamental difference between believers and atheists is that atheists are grown-up enough not to need the threat of a vengeful deity to behave responsibly in social situations.

The higher/lower stuff is your own way of making sense of religion and I've no wish to prop up your delusions.

MM

[paulpablo]

I don't know if people misunderstand what I'm saying or purposely doing a straw man.

I said nothing of religious or people believing God being better or closer to God.

I'm saying, in absence of God, what do people feel they gravitate towards since I feel when we become more good, we reach higher stages, which are closer to God as there are infinite stages, and you can go higher up or lower, and when I think of higher and lower, I think of it with respect to a metaphysical existence.

I'm asking to see people's opinions. I've been here for some time now, and I've always made it clear, that I don't deem theists superior to atheists, nor do I think disbelieving in God will make you a non-righteous person or distance you from God. I've said the exact opposite in fact, saying, I think Atheists can be as close to God as Theists can be, if they do good and are loving people.

This is a really odd belief since I thought you believed in the quran?

But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally."

And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment.

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.

And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.

And the disbelievers - they are the wrongdoers.

And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.

It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

[Rampant.A.I.]

Hi

When I think of people that are really good people, I have sense they are nearer to God then others. I also feel we can move closer to God. I feel there is stages and that these stages are real, that we really move closer or further from God by how our hearts of souls move through out lives influenced by how we act and react.

Taking away God, what do Atheists feel they gravitate towards? Goodness has no metaphysical existence to draw closer to from an Atheistic perspective, so while we may become more good, we are not moving closer to anything really or am I missing something?

Do you still feel there is stages of higher and lower if we take God out of the picture?

Morality has significant social functions. This is not news, religion engages with the social aspects of morality too. Why would atheists not behave in a socially responsible manner?

As I see it, the fundamental difference between believers and atheists is that atheists are grown-up enough not to need the threat of a vengeful deity to behave responsibly in social situations.

The higher/lower stuff is your own way of making sense of religion and I've no wish to prop up your delusions.

MM

Well put.

"Well, how can you be good with no one watching to keep you honest and enforce the rules?" Is more than childish, it's downright sociopathic.