Mickiel, if you truly do believe in evolution, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons because you clearly don't understand any of it.

(June 7, 2014 at 7:08 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Mickiel, if you truly do believe in evolution, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons because you clearly don't understand any of it.

I don't believe a word that shows up under his username.

He clearly doesn't understand what evidence is, yet by his book this whole thread is 'evidence'. He clearly doesn't understand what evolution is, yet he says he 'believes' in it, but not quite the same way as everyone else. He says he's not religious, but seems to want to tell the world about what it is he believes, and the fact that he chooses an atheist forum to come and do this on, shows me without any doubt that he's a lying piece of shit, he clearly has an agenda is so blatantly religious it's unreal.

(June 6, 2014 at 9:06 pm)One Above All Wrote: OP, explain something to me. You claim to believe in a god, but not be religious. However, you also have a mythology (a belief about how we came to be) attached to your belief. This is contradictory. Can you accurately explain how you can believe in a god, have a mythology, possibly things that your god wants you/us to do (though I'm not sure about this part, it seems to be a universal theme in theism), and beliefs about what your god is, what it wants, and why it did things, and not be religious?

I have no mythology, I am not confined by you're definitions. Religion is mans effort to search for and reach god, which is the origin of science; I already know its the other way around; god has to reveal himself to the human first; or there can be no real connection with him directly. Well even that is no so, he can reveal things through his spirit to a human, and still not get personal with that human.

I know and accept that I will not know god, until he decides its my time; he has not. I am not religious, because I do not believe hardly anything religion does; I view religion as differently ass I view evolution.

By the way, have you ever seen " The Nuzi Tablets", a great find in biblical archaeology.

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(June 7, 2014 at 7:40 am)Napoléon Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 7:08 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Mickiel, if you truly do believe in evolution, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons because you clearly don't understand any of it.

I don't believe a word that shows up under his username.

He clearly doesn't understand what evidence is, yet by his book this whole thread is 'evidence'. He clearly doesn't understand what evolution is, yet he says he 'believes' in it, but not quite the same way as everyone else. He says he's not religious, but seems to want to tell the world about what it is he believes, and the fact that he chooses an atheist forum to come and do this on, shows me without any doubt that he's a lying piece of shit, he clearly has an agenda is so blatantly religious it's unreal.

Why are you reading what I have to say?

Why not read about the biblical King Herods castle;

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/josep...Castle.htm

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: I have no mythology,

This is a lie, based on what "mythology" means, which I told you.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: I am not confined by you're definitions.

If you're just going to redefine everything to suit your "arguments", you will fail at convincing anyone of anything... other than yourself.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: Religion is mans effort to search for and reach god,

So you're not searching for and trying to reach god? Do you believe in an afterlife? Do you follow what your god tells you to do to go to the "good" afterlife? If the answer to these questions is "yes", then, by definition, you're trying to reach god.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: which is the origin of science;

Wrong. Science evolved independently of "searching for and trying to reach god". See, people back then read the Bible and found the part about the Tower of Babel, where god pissed his pants at the very idea of humans trying to reach him, which caused him to throw a hissy fit and scramble everyone's brain, so science was largely repressed.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: I already know its the other way around; god has to reveal himself to the human first; or there can be no real connection with him directly.

I'm sure it works that way for humans too, only humans go to jail when they reveal themselves to other humans when said humans don't want to.
Seriously though, why doesn't god reveal himself to everyone? If people can't search for and reach god, but god still wants to be known and worshiped by everyone. Is your god an idiot? Or is your religion simply full of holes, as all religions are?

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: Well even that is no so, he can reveal things through his spirit to a human, and still not get personal with that human.

God has a "spirit", whatever that is? Weren't "spirits" created by god? What would be the purpose of that? Does your god want to go to "god Heaven" when he (by the way, why is your god a "he"?) dies? And how is revealing things not getting personal? Is there no interaction between god and the human?

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: I know and accept that I will not know god, until he decides its my time; he has not.

Yeah... Except "he" told you he's real. No knowledge transfer went on there.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: I am not religious, because I do not believe hardly anything religion does;

Other than:
Deities
Spirits
Mythology
Creationism

You know, which are the core principles of every major religion. You're just missing "objective morality", and your religion is the same as everyone else's.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: I view religion as differently ass I view evolution.

What you call evolution is nothing of the sort, which you know. Again, this is a lie.
Does your god like liars?

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: By the way, have you ever seen " The Nuzi Tablets", a great find in biblical archaeology.

And you also ascribe to the Bible? The only way you could be more religious is if you had followers.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:31 am)One Above All Wrote:

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: I have no mythology,

If you're just going to redefine everything to suit your "arguments", you will fail at convincing anyone of anything... other than yourself.

[.

I hold no interest in convincing anyone here of anything; atheist should think exactly as they do, they are supposed to. I think as I do, because it is my time to think in that manner. I do not believe in changing how others think; I like atheist just as they are.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: By the way, have you ever seen " The Nuzi Tablets", a great find in biblical archaeology.

Have you heard about the tablets which relate a Babylonian account of the creation of man and a flood? Atra-Hasis Synopsis

Quote:Tablet I contains a creation myth about the Sumerian gods Anu, Enlil, and Enki, gods of sky, wind, and water, “when gods were in the ways of men” according to its incipit. Following the Cleromancy (casting of lots), sky is ruled by Anu, earth by Enlil, and the freshwater sea by Enki. Enlil assigned junior divines[6] to do farm labor and maintain the rivers and canals, but after forty years the lesser gods or dingirs rebelled and refused to do strenuous labor. Instead of punishing the rebels, Enki, who is also the kind, wise counselor of the gods, suggested that humans be created to do the work. The mother goddess Mami is assigned the task of creating humans by shaping clay figurines mixed with the flesh and blood of the slain god Geshtu-E, “a god who had intelligence” (his name means “ear” or “wisdom”).[7] All the gods in turn spit upon the clay. After ten months, a specially made womb breaks open and humans are born. Tablet I continues with legends about overpopulation and plagues. Atrahasis is mentioned at the end of Tablet I.

Tablet II begins with more overpopulation of humans and the god Enlil sending first famine and drought at formulaic intervals of 1200 years to reduce the population. In this epic Enlil is depicted as a nasty capricious god while Enki is depicted as a kind helpful god, perhaps because priests of Enki were writing and copying the story. Tablet II is mostly damaged, but ends with Enlil's decision to destroy humankind with a flood and Enki bound by an oath to keep the plan secret.

Tablet III of the Atrahasis Epic contains the flood story. This is the part that was adapted in the Epic of Gilgamesh, tablet XI. Tablet III of Atrahasis tells how the god Enki warns the hero Atrahasis (“Extremely Wise”) of Shuruppak, speaking through a reed wall (suggestive of an oracle) to dismantle his house (perhaps to provide a construction site) and build a boat to escape the flood planned by the god Enlil to destroy humankind. The boat is to have a roof “like Apsu” (a subterranean, fresh water realm presided over by the god Enki), upper and lower decks, and to be sealed with bitumen. Atrahasis boards the boat with his family and animals and seals the door. The storm and flood begin. Even the gods are afraid. After seven days the flood ends and Atrahasis offers sacrifices to the gods. Enlil is furious with Enki for violating his oath. But Enki denies violating his oath and argues: “I made sure life was preserved.” Enki and Enlil agree on other means for controlling the human population.

It's likely that the story of Abraham is a mythological account of people migrating from Mesopotamia to Canaan. The settlers kept some of the customs of their original homeland because they were useful to them. (The Nuzi Tablets) When they adopted a monotheistic deity they adapted the Mesopotamian myths to suit their new religion.

We know that the Mesopotamians existed and their creation and flood myths are older than the Genesis versions. If we're going to take archaeology and old texts as proof that deities exist, we'll have to accept that the Mesopotamian deities are the real gods and the God of the Bible is just made up.

(June 7, 2014 at 11:18 am)mickiel Wrote: Why not read about the biblical King Herods castle;

There's plenty of evidence that Herod the Great really existed but the Siege of Masada doesn't prove that Jesus existed.

Quote:The siege of Masada was among the final accords of the Great Jewish Revolt, occurring from 73 to 74 CE on a large hilltop in current-day Israel.

(June 7, 2014 at 12:04 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: [quote='mickiel' pid='683294' dateline='1402154282']
It's likely that the story of Abraham is a mythological account of people migrating from Mesopotamia to Canaan. The settlers kept some of the customs of their original homeland because they were useful to them. (The Nuzi Tablets) When they adopted a monotheistic deity they adapted the Mesopotamian myths to suit their new religion.

We know that the Mesopotamians existed and their creation and flood myths are older than the Genesis versions. If we're going to take archaeology and old texts as proof that deities exist, we'll have to accept that the Mesopotamian deities are the real gods and the God of the Bible is just made up.

I disagree, we have the mans tomb. Myths don't have real burial grounds;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

(June 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm)mickiel Wrote: I disagree, we have the mans tomb. Myths don't have real burial grounds;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

My great grandfather has a real burial ground. If I make up a story about him and propagate it to other people, does that mean the events therein suddenly took place?

(June 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm)mickiel Wrote: I disagree, we have the mans tomb. Myths don't have real burial grounds;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

Are you telling us you think Abraham was buried there?

(June 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm)mickiel Wrote: I disagree, we have the mans tomb. Myths don't have real burial grounds;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

Quote:Situated beneath a Saladin-era mosque converted from a large rectangular Herodian-era structure, the series of subterranean chambers is located in the heart of the old city of Hebron (Al-Khalil) in the Hebron Hills. According to tradition that has been associated with both the Book of Genesis and the Quran, the cave and adjoining field were purchased by Abraham as a burial plot.

Hebron is in the right area.

Quote:Hebron (Arabic: About this sound الخليل (help·info) al-Khalīl; Hebrew:About this sound חֶבְרוֹן (help·info), Standard Hebrew: Ḥevron, Tiberian: Ḥeḇrôn ISO 259-3: Ḥebron; Ottoman Turkish Halilürrahman, Ancient Greek Hebrṓn, Χεβρών) is a Palestinian[3][4][5][6] city located in the southern West Bank, 30 km (19 mi) south of Jerusalem.

Unfortunately, tradition and myths don't prove that Abraham actually existed and the number of occupants in this cave increased as the tradition really got going.

Quote:According to Genesis, three biblical couples are buried there:

Abraham and Sarah (Genesis 23:1-20; Genesis 49:31)
Isaac and Rebekah (Genesis 35:29; Genesis 49:31)
Jacob and Leah (Genesis 49:28-33; Genesis 50:4-5; Genesis 50:12-13)

There is a Jewish tradition, that besides the three biblical couples mentioned above, that Adam and Eve were buried there also. (Zohar, Ruth 96) Certain Kabbalah texts also add that Moses and Zipporah are buried in the cave. [2]

Another Jewish tradition tells that when Jacob was brought to be buried in the cave, Esau prevented the burial claiming he had the right to be buried in the cave; after some negotiation Naphtali was sent to Egypt to retrieve the document stating Esau sold his part in the cave to Jacob. As this was going on Hushim, the son of Dan who was hard of hearing, did not understand what was going on, and why his grandfather was not being buried, so he asked for an explanation; after being given one he became angry and said: "Is my grandfather to lie there in contempt until Naphtali returns from the land of Egypt?" He then took a club and killed Esau, and Esau's head rolled into the cave.[37] This means that the head of Esau is also buried in the cave.

There's another interesting tradition about the cave.

Quote:According to the Midrash, the Patriarchs were buried in the cave because the cave is the threshold to the Garden of Eden. The Patriarchs are said not to be dead but "sleeping". They rise to beg mercy for their children throughout the generations. According to the Zohar,[41] this tomb is the gateway through which souls enter into Gan Eden, heaven.

The Jewish Virtual Library has more information. The Cave of Machpelah Tomb of the Patriarchs

Quote:The double cave, a mystery of thousands of years, was uncovered several years ago beneath the massive building, revealing artifacts from the Early Israelite Period (some 30 centuries ago). The structure was built during the Second Temple Period (about two thousand years ago) by Herod, King of Judea, providing a place for gatherings and Jewish prayers at the graves of the Patriarchs.

It's possible that a leader of a migration was buried here but it's unlikely that his name was Abram, later changed to Abraham. When the Mesopotamian creation and flood myths were adapted for a monotheistic religion the folk history of the migration would have been reworked to suit the religion as well.

Etymology of the name Abraham.

Quote:masc. proper name, name of the first of the patriarchs in the Old Testament, from Hebrew Abraham "father of a multitude," from abh "father" + *raham (cognate with Arabic ruham "multitude"); the name he altered from Abram "high father," from second element ram "high, exalted." Related: Abrahamic.

It's very convenient that this patriarch's original name happened to mean 'high father' in Hebrew because it was easily changed to a related name which meant 'father of a multitude' in Hebrew.