(May 3, 2010 at 11:10 am)Thor Wrote: Despite hundreds of years of experimentation, scientists have been unable to turn lead into gold. So where did gold come from if it was not spun out of straw by Rumpelstiltskin? The lack of evidence for turning lead into gold is my evidence. Obviously, Rumpelstiltskin made all the gold!

Now do you see how stupid your argument is?

But gold was made by Rumplestiltskin. In three nights He made the gold! How can you doubt the Holy Book of Grimm?

HEATHEN!!

BURN HIM

(April 30, 2010 at 3:11 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Angel, you see these things as 'clues that god exists', because you already believe that god exists. That is the definition of a presupposed conclusion. What we are all trying to tell you is that none of these things are actual, demonstrable evidence that god exists. Unless you already believe in god.

I offer this as contention;

During my change from Atheism to Christianity, I began to notice things that confused me and startled me, that I could not explain from an atheistic, materialistic, or scientific viewpoint. Believe me, I did try to do so. I looked for refutation and explanation, and found none. Only when I applied God to the scenario did things begin to make sense. And with it, a lot more in my life began to fall into place as well. Keep in mind, I still considered myself Atheist up to a point, but there came a moment when it just was not possible to explain what was happening in this way any longer.

(May 3, 2010 at 12:13 pm)Watson Wrote:

(April 30, 2010 at 3:11 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Angel, you see these things as 'clues that god exists', because you already believe that god exists. That is the definition of a presupposed conclusion. What we are all trying to tell you is that none of these things are actual, demonstrable evidence that god exists. Unless you already believe in god.

I offer this as contention;

During my change from Atheism to Christianity, I began to notice things that confused me and startled me, that I could not explain from an atheistic, materialistic, or scientific viewpoint. Believe me, I did try to do so. I looked for refutation and explanation, and found none. Only when I applied God to the scenario did things begin to make sense. And with it, a lot more in my life began to fall into place as well. Keep in mind, I still considered myself Atheist up to a point, but there came a moment when it just was not possible to explain what was happening in this way any longer.

So because you lacked an explanation for things that confused you, goddidit?

It's my old friend tavarish! YES!

No, not because I lacked an explanation, I had plenty of them actually. But because God and His nature*, as I was coming to understand it, made more sense than any other explanation anyone or anything could offer me.

*Not just goddidit, stop generalizing for the sake of easy contention.

Applying 'god' to a scenario and having it make sense is nothing short of willful delusion in my book. Goddidit, prevents further questioning, so that one can move on and feel satisfied that there is no longer a reason to wonder. It is a cop-out.

Again, it wasn't just 'goddidit'. I was actively looking at the world around me and asking "How? Why?" about certain things, very human problems which concerned me, my loved ones, my family, and life in general. You call it willful delusion, I call it searching. I still ask questions of this world around me, questions which may or may not contend my worldview.

For example, just recently I've been having an issue with my beliefs. I believe that suicide is wrong. However, the Japanese samurai code 'boushido', I believe it is, has the code of 'death before dishonor.' If enemies are nearing and you wish to die before you are captured, so tha tyou do not give out information or any thing of that nature, you may kill yourself. I wondered if this was wrong, as well, or if it could be acceptable. I asked myself "Would this form of suicide also be wrong?"

As well, I believe that applying the 'goddidit' label to my argument is a cop-out, because it allows you to throw preconceived answers at me without actually having to do any original thinking at all.

Okay, let me rephrase that comment then.

Applying 'god' to a scenario and having it make sense is nothing short of willful delusion in my book. Goddidit Claiming that god is responsible for the things you do not have answers to prevents further questioning, so that you can move on and feel satisfied that there is no longer a reason to wonder. It is a cop-out.

Your suicide example makes no sense to me. Whether or not suicide can be considered wrong, by your example, is determined by the society in which the question is asked. Most humans, it can be argued, feel that suicide is wrong. There are perfectly natural, chemical biological reasons for that to be the default stance. Morality does not come from an external source. It is built into every animal on the planet.

(May 3, 2010 at 12:33 pm)Watson Wrote: It's my old friend tavarish! YES!

No, not because I lacked an explanation, I had plenty of them actually. But because God and His nature*, as I was coming to understand it, made more sense than any other explanation anyone or anything could offer me.

*Not just goddidit, stop generalizing for the sake of easy contention.

So because it made more sense to you, that made it true?

Yes, we're off to a flying start today.

Creationists also make this case - it's harder to study a field and learn about many intricacies of a subject than to just believe a guy talking about a holy book and say Magicmandunit.

There are lots of unanswered questions in the universe and lots of answers that are difficult and often cold and heartless. This does not make God real.

(May 3, 2010 at 1:02 pm)tavarish Wrote:

(May 3, 2010 at 12:33 pm)Watson Wrote: It's my old friend tavarish! YES!

No, not because I lacked an explanation, I had plenty of them actually. But because God and His nature*, as I was coming to understand it, made more sense than any other explanation anyone or anything could offer me.

*Not just goddidit, stop generalizing for the sake of easy contention.

So because it made more sense to you, that made it true?

Yes, we're off to a flying start today.

Creationists also make this case - it's harder to study a field and learn about many intricacies of a subject than to just believe a guy talking about a holy book and say Magicmandunit.

There are lots of unanswered questions in the universe and lots of answers that are difficult and often cold and heartless. This does not make God real.

I think I'd rather trust the engineer who knows how the plane operates to the idjit who says God did it.

Quote:Now do you see how stupid your argument is?

My money is on "no."