Recently, I was involved in a life-changing series of events. I'm a lifelong agnostic apistavist, and have been since before I discovered a word to describe what I was.

I grew up thinking there was something seriously wrong with me. I could not find a religion I agreed with or even believed the premises of. I have been told for 20 some odd years that I am going to hell for any number of contradictory reasons. And I learned pretty quickly to only tell people I have known and trusted that I'm agnostic.

I have experienced confusion to outright rejection for merely using the adjective, and have been told it's simply not possible to "not believe in anything."

I have watched the utter hypocrisy of people who claim to be religious, but only when it suits them. And I kept it under wraps for a very long time.

I have friends, family, co workers and acquaintances who I deeply respect, who are religious enough I don't think I can clearly state my views around without damaging interpersonal relationships, putting my career at risk, or otherwise ostracizing myself.

This came to a head today, when during a vaguely related fight, I laid into my wife with the grievances and hypocrisy I see in her relatively mild Christian faith, and absolute horror and inhumanity the religion apologizes out of sight.

Without going into too much detail, I have always surrounded myself with predominately female friends (just get along with women better) and for some accursed reason have the type of personality that I can board a city bus, and someone will sit down next to me and tell me their life story, and close friends will reveal lurid details I could live a perfectly happy life without ever having been exposed to.

Suffice it to say, I remember being 13, knowing hell didn't exist, and having my best friend's little sister describe experiences that made me wish it did.

I don't know if I can hold my tongue any longer. For decades, I have watched and listened to horror stories that "turned out alright" because God, and because God will punish terrible human beings whenever he's good and ready and gets around to it.

I hate knowing that karmic retribution, hell and heaven are bullshit.

I hate knowing the statistics of sex abuse,
https://www.rainn.org/statistics

And that 97% of people who commit the most heinous, horrific, destructive act possible to another human being will go unpunished. And it was hard not to cheer out loud watching the end scenes of "Descent" with Rosario Dawson tonight.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_(2007_film)

I have become more outspoken with friends and family, even when it complicates things. I have to endure constant ribbing and chiding from a close friend whose mother is dying, over "nihilism and anger at God," because I can't force myself to believe in the same nebulous deistic god he does, I don't want him to have to face facts.

But I'm fucking angry. I'm livid. At religion, at what it allows people to do to each other, because of a false cosmic do-over that I don't think exists.

I even hear it from my father. My lapsed catholic gnostic atheist father, who is pushing 60, grumpy as fuck, the embodiment of the "angry atheist" caricature religious people portray, and still wants to know "why I care what other people believe."

Because what some people believe allows for pain, suffering, and absolution of things no mortal deserves to be absolved of.

So I find it harder and harder to hold my tongue, from face-to-face, to Facebook, to friends posting pictures of sunsets as proof of God on Instagram.

And it's me. I'm the immoral one, never mind my nonexistent criminal record, who remembers the decades gone by where I held your daughter's hair back as she puked in the gutter from the drug addiction she used to get away from the images of her pastor father creeping into her room at night, an addiction so strong I eventually cut ties with her.

And I now sleep next to a woman who wakes up screaming several nights a month, stuck in the past, yet convinced there's someone else in the room.

And yet I'm the broken one, because I don't believe in God. The one who cried and prayed and begged to be shown what to believe in for countless nights on end.

And I just don't know if I can hold my tongue any longer. I just don't have enough faith to pretend I might wake up and believe one day, any longer.

You don't have to hold your tongue. You just have to surround yourself with people who love you for who you are. *hugs*

^^^
What Losty said.

Why should you hold your tongue, walk on eggshells etc for people who will not do the same for you?

Enough nonsense already. People are what they are. Some are of high integrity, others are worse than trash, others are some where in between.

So what are the positives?

What are the negatives?

(June 16, 2014 at 6:27 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: And I just don't know if I can hold my tongue any longer. I just don't have enough faith to pretend I might wake up and believe one day, any longer.

well, You have to decide if it is about "you" or "us". It is easy to hold my "tong" because I have a slight understanding of the human machine. So, if you say that you don't believe in heaven or hell that is not considered holding you tong to me. If you say, "no that won't happen to me because I don't believe in your god", that also is not holding your tong.

If you want to berate, mock, and put them down because you're the one who is "right" and owns the "real truth". Then I would suggest not only to hold your tong, but to also drink a cup of STFU and take an anti-self-centered egotistical maniac pull once a day.

(June 16, 2014 at 8:02 am)archangle Wrote: well, You have to decide if it is about "you" or "us". It is easy to hold my "tong" because I have a slight understanding of the human machine. So, if you say that you don't believe in heaven or hell that is not considered holding you tong to me. If you say, "no that won't happen to me because I don't believe in your god", that also is not holding your tong.

If you want to berate, mock, and put them down because you're the one who is "right" and owns the "real truth". Then I would suggest not only to hold your tong, but to also drink a cup of STFU and take an anti-self-centered egotistical maniac pull once a day.

*tongue

Also, fuck off.

*where the hell is Chas when I need a coffee emoticon

I get your anger; I felt it for a long time myself. For myself, it was vital to leave it behind, because it was chewing me up inside. I live by what my dad always told me: "You can't control what other people do, you can only control how you respond." I had to stop worrying about what people thought about me. And yes, it's easier said than done ... but it is doable.

I wish I had more to offer, because it seems clear that this paltry response is insufficient, but I don't. I can only say that I hope you find the peace and happiness that we all want.

---

(June 16, 2014 at 8:02 am)archangle Wrote: If you want to berate, mock, and put them down because you're the one who is "right" and owns the "real truth". Then I would suggest not only to hold your tong, but to also drink a cup of STFU and take an anti-self-centered egotistical maniac pull once a day.

Physician, heal thyself.

If your time on these forums have helped you accept certain realities then I would suggest that your experience has been positive, overall. Especially if it's helped you face uncomfortable truths. The damage caused by religions or faiths is often difficult to cope with so you can take that as evidence that you're behaving completely normally. There are many people here, I'm sure, myself included, who empathise with your situation.

Ramp, my man, I know nothing of what you're going through.... being atheist in the US seems to suck big time...
I'd say, hang in there, don't quit... if you feel you can open your mouth and say the right things at the right time, I'd say go for it.... but how to tell if it's the right time?

Who knows? Perhaps you have more closeted atheists around yourself than you think...


But I only wanted to address this detail here:

(June 16, 2014 at 6:27 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: And I now sleep next to a woman who wakes up screaming several nights a month, stuck in the past, yet convinced there's someone else in the room.

Sleep paralysis? Oh shit....

Rampant, I feel like I just took a peak into my future. I'm already holding my tongue every day. I've been thinking about asking my 14 year old cousins questions that would get them thinking. But I always back out in the end.

The problems you attribute to the religious are the problems of reality. The low down is that it's hard to cope with if you face it.

People fail, and religious people fail. If you end up twisted, then you've failed too. Doesn't matter what badge you wear.

It's not other people you have to sort out, it's yourself. And I don't mean any philosophy or faith.

If you go around telling other people that they've got it wrong then you're just another idiot fanatic, and part of the problem.

Take care.