(June 23, 2014 at 6:54 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No, Christianity starts from the premise that human motives can be self destructive. It aims to free you from those so that you can live the most productive life possible.

Frodo, if that's what Christianity taught, who would disagree? You make it sound like any sensible self-help program. But c'mon, we both know that's not what it teaches.

Why are human motives sometimes self-destructive? An intelligent question which Christianity gets wrong (though I don't blame it, nobody understand human psychology in the first century).

How can a person be freed from their vices and overcome their shortcomings? Again, intelligent questions with no single or simple solution, which also again, Christianity gets PROFOUNDLY wrong.

(June 22, 2014 at 5:04 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

True dat

As usual,Frods, you missed the irony.

I got it and ignored it min

Pickup.. Of course that's what it teaches. Why would anyone do it otherwise? Christianity teaches that it's in our nature...what's your alternate explanation? Other solutions are:

Accept your imperfections (humanism etc)
Punish yourself/make sacrifices (other religions)

Christianity's answer:

Grant direct access to perfection

Sure people fail all of the time. Critics cite that as reason not to try. Throwing the baby out with the bath water.


How and why the hell wouldn't you want to accept this best solution?

(June 24, 2014 at 6:02 am)fr0d0 Wrote: How and why the hell wouldn't you want to accept this best solution?

The best? Nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

Any system that relies on the threat of eternal torment to influence behavior can hardly be described as the best.

(June 24, 2014 at 6:02 am)fr0d0 Wrote: How and why the hell wouldn't you want to accept this best solution?

It presumes that there is someone there to grant perfection. Putting aside all of the questions regarding why that someone would put us through all of this if he had it to grant, if that person will not reveal himself to all, then the best option is to understand that we are what we are and find ways to work with what we have in order to get the most out of it. All in all, humanity has done a pretty impressive job of that, and religion was one of the tools, but I think we're ready to move on from it. We have more knowledge and a better understanding of ourselves and our world, and religion is becoming more and more of a detriment to progress IMO.

Quote:Grant direct access to perfection

And this is where I find Christianity unfathomable. God is so obviously not perfect - he describes himself as Jealous and as wrathful, he's also proud and vain.

That is 4 of the 7 Catholic deadly sins right there. The other 3 - lust, gluttony and vanity may only be missing because we don't know him well enough.

Perfect? God? Not even close - way behind Wonder Woman for example.

(June 24, 2014 at 6:09 am)Cato Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 6:02 am)fr0d0 Wrote: How and why the hell wouldn't you want to accept this best solution?

The best? Nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

Any system that relies on the threat of eternal torment to influence behavior can hardly be described as the best.

I don't accept eternal torment so I guess that's why I can't entertain your objection.

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(June 24, 2014 at 6:43 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 6:02 am)fr0d0 Wrote: How and why the hell wouldn't you want to accept this best solution?

It presumes that there is someone there to grant perfection. Putting aside all of the questions regarding why that someone would put us through all of this if he had it to grant, if that person will not reveal himself to all, then the best option is to understand that we are what we are and find ways to work with what we have in order to get the most out of it. All in all, humanity has done a pretty impressive job of that, and religion was one of the tools, but I think we're ready to move on from it. We have more knowledge and a better understanding of ourselves and our world, and religion is becoming more and more of a detriment to progress IMO.

That's what I defined as a humanist view. I think it's clearly inferior to the Christian view. I don't think it's healthy to feel constantly inadequate. That sounds like you would think justified confidence is a bad thing. So I can't agree.

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(June 24, 2014 at 6:55 am)max-greece Wrote:

Quote:Grant direct access to perfection

And this is where I find Christianity unfathomable. God is so obviously not perfect - he describes himself as Jealous and as wrathful, he's also proud and vain.

That is 4 of the 7 Catholic deadly sins right there. The other 3 - lust, gluttony and vanity may only be missing because we don't know him well enough.

Perfect? God? Not even close - way behind Wonder Woman for example.

I think you deliberately misunderstand.

eg: Anger isn't a 'sin'. Justice isn't a sin. Letting those fester etc is the sin/ is clearly unhealthy.

(June 24, 2014 at 7:00 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I don't accept eternal torment so I guess that's why I can't entertain your objection.

But you do consider yourself a Christian?

(June 24, 2014 at 7:10 am)Hoopington Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 7:00 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I don't accept eternal torment so I guess that's why I can't entertain your objection.

But you do consider yourself a Christian?

There's no but about it. I am a Christian and I don't agree with the translation there.

Wait, Frodo, you're saying atheists/humanists are the ones that constantly feel inadequate? So, as a Christian, you don't feel like you were born into this thing called sin? That you're not prone to sin? That your only hope is to hopelessly strive to become as "perfect" as a man that may or may not have lived 2000 years ago? That your nature isn't inherently evil? That it's only your eternal source of your morals that keeps you from killing and raping people willy nilly? That's not your religion?