(July 3, 2014 at 12:05 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: That Jesus character was such a kidder!

Mark 16:16 (CEB) = "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn’t believe will be condemned."

Not all who call themselves Christians believe in Jesus. Half the Catholics in France don't even believe in God.

And the French Catholics used to call the French Protestants "atheists".

(July 3, 2014 at 12:28 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: And the French Catholics used to call the French Protestants "atheists".

I thought they just called them heretics, but my history of the rivalry between the Catholics and Huguenots is a bit rusty these days.

(July 3, 2014 at 12:30 am)Polaris Wrote:

(July 3, 2014 at 12:28 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: And the French Catholics used to call the French Protestants "atheists".

I thought they just called them heretics, but my history of the rivalry between the Catholics and Huguenots is a bit rusty these days.

The word "atheist" originated around 1565-1575. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

In 1572 the French Catholics massacred a bunch of French Protestants in what's known as the The St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Barthol...y_massacre
They had been fighting over religion since 1562 and it would continue until 1598. Between 2-4 million were killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion

"Atheist" was probably the nicest term they used for each other.

(July 2, 2014 at 11:45 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(July 2, 2014 at 10:35 pm)ignoramus Wrote: Atheists? You mean like burning or stoning to death?
I have an uncomfortable feeling that you aren't being sarcastic.

No, once more I'm sure the reference is being made to communists. You know, those people who replaced the worship of a deity with the worship of the state or the individual in just another kind of religion. Those who slaughtered in the name of control, not in the name of atheism, as many of the religious have done and still do.

Yeah. We keep bringing up those pesky communists.

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(July 3, 2014 at 12:05 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: That Jesus character was such a kidder!

Mark 16:16 (CEB) = "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn’t believe will be condemned."

According to the universal reconciliation view, those who die not believing will be condemned to hell, but will eventually come to faith, at which time they will receive salvation.

Thing is, hell wouldnt persuade me to "come to the faith" precisely the opposite. The last thing that's going to be on my mind after some time in hell is salvation. So maybe they outta keep that door locked when I get my walking papers? The big man aint gonna want me in his little gated community.

It would seem that the universal reconciliation view is in error. Seeing as I exist, and can make the statements above definitively and unflinchingly. My opinion on this won't change - not even under torture/imprisonment/being forced to listen to shit like this.

(July 1, 2014 at 7:46 pm)Lek Wrote: I've been researching this for awhile and lean one direction, but I'm not totally sure because there's evidence in the bible for both views. These views have been shared by christians down through the centuries. One possibility is that people who die as unbelievers will go to hell for an appropriate time and will then be annihilated. Another view, which I lean to more, is that those people will go to hell for a time and will eventually come to faith in Christ and will spend eternity with God. The bible states that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If most people don't end up being saved, that seems like wasted atonement to me. Although God can be loving by ending our misery, I think that universal reconciliation points to a loving God and it gives a correctional purpose to hell. I don't know if the majority of people will go to to hell or not, but it appears that way today. I just can't get into peoples heart's and minds. I can't know the nature of their relationship with God.

Allow me to help you out here: would Anne Frank, who worshipped your yahweh all her life, and whom was brutally murdered by christians, and who never accepted your jesus, be in hell right now?
Was she ever there? And if she was: Would the devils torturing her tell her to accept your jesus? Or does she just have to guess? I mean really?

And what about people who never heard about your jesus? Or even gods at all? Do they burn and get the story of your jesus recited to them at the same time?

Also: I know a woman who has absolutely no relationship with your god, who spends all her time helping others. She's not rich, it really costs her her own time and effort. Furthermore she actively hates the - idea - of gods. She would kick him out the front door. Is she going to hell?

And lastly: you are correct that we do not know the nature of - lets say - hitlers relationship with god. So. What if he genuinely repented in the end? Accepted your jesus, fullheartedly, and maybe he even repented so hard he even took his own life. Would any of the above help him? Hell... Is there a scenario possible where Anne Frank is in hell while hitler isn't?
What if Hitler believed he was doing your jesus' work all along? This is much less unlikely than it may sound. The idea that jews were responsible for jesus' death was widely preached at the time (Deicide). Also popular was (and is) the belief that chrisitians took the place of the jews as gods chosen people. Which, in this discourse of course, was the jews own fault. Many of the people who actually met your jesus (if he ever existed) or heard about him during his (supposed) lifetime didn't accept him as messiah, let alone as yahweh playing scapegoat. They - rejected - him and many christians through the ages resented them for that.

(June 30, 2014 at 5:53 am)Irrational Wrote: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?

It probably depends on how much they like us.

(July 2, 2014 at 11:00 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 2, 2014 at 10:35 pm)ignoramus Wrote: Atheists? You mean like burning or stoning to death?
I have an uncomfortable feeling that you aren't being sarcastic.

No, more like sending them off to prison camps or just killing them by firing squads. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

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(July 2, 2014 at 10:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Feeling persecuted, man?

Not a lot. How about you?

Not usually....although I do get sick of pandering politicians mouthing all this god shit all the time. It's more an annoyance....like getting a pebble in your shoe...than "persecution" though.

(June 30, 2014 at 10:58 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(June 30, 2014 at 9:37 pm)ThomM Wrote: Just the fact that you brought up a book that said the christ was a Jew - and much of what is claimed by the religion is not true leaves a dilemma.

Since there is NOT a single document from the supposed time of the christ - that even mentions his name - and since we do not know who wrote the bible - when they wrote the original documents upon which it was based - and how much those documents were edited - there really is NO provable basis for claiming ANYTHING is true about the christ. Historical studies could only be based on religious writings - which as ALL religious writings - are baseless beliefs - nothing more.

Which brings us back to the question - do most xtians really believe that most of us are going to hell. Since the existence of a "hell" itself is a contrived item - not thoroughly covered even in the bible - and not believed by the Jew upon which the religion is based - does it really matter.
It would not be their decision who would go to such a place - anyway.

The book I raid had basis in certain studies, but since it was a novel I can't really quote. Yes the author mentioned the documents, none of them are from the original prophets/christ followers but copies translated mostly into greek if I'm not mistaken. I got surprised however when I realized about 80% of the bible is forged. Not that I thought the bible is genuine, but I never thought so much would be forged. If Jesus existed, he probably never intended to create a new religion anyway.

Well - I would love to see proof that the bible is a "forgery"
Since we have no idea who wrote virtually ALL of the original texts - maybe with the exception of a few of Paul's letters - but not even all of them - how can one claim they are forged when we do not know what the original writings even said. I prefer to call them Fictions - rather than forgeries.

Even the religions will admit that while some of the bible was LATER attributed to some of the supposed Apostles - even they know that it would be highly unlikely - even if they actually were real.

As far as starting a new religion - it was started MUCH later than the time of the christ. Remember - even the last supper was a jewish ritual - although not a seder (That had not been invented yet)

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(July 1, 2014 at 8:12 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 7:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote: One looks like wasted atonement to you...and the other (hell) doesn't look like wasted effort?

If hell is correctional, followed by salvation, then it's not wasted effort. That's my opinion.

The most major problem with the claim of Hell and a devil for a supposedly monotheistic religion - which has a single creator - who is ALmighty - is that it contradicts the claim of the religion.

If a god is almighty -then there is NOTHING that it is in conflict with - it can overcome ANYTHING (The devil is not claimed to be almighty). AND - if there is only one god with the power of creation - it had to create EVIL as well as GOOD - and the only reason why there is a conlflict between good and evil is because the almighty god both created it and allows it to happen.

That conflicts with the ALL GOOD god claim - among others.

AS far as what hell is =- it is a threat the Humans who created religion (TO control the masses of uneducated people) - from which those masses are to be scared into doing what the leaders of the religion claim that the god wants.